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Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

theregister.com

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Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#131

Post by thedanbob »

falcor84 wrote: post #122

I should probably confess that as someone who lives in an area with a lot of construction work, I'm also very vulnerable to "prompt injection" when there's a person standing on the middle of the road holding a sign telling me to change course.

I once encountered an intersection with a big "NO ENTRY" sign on the other side. I turned but google maps wouldn't give me another route, so I did a u-turn and came back to it from the side. Which meant I was close enough to read the small text underneath that said "vehicles under 10 tons excepted". I don't think I've ever been so angry at a road sign.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#132

Post by wyldfire »

renewiltord wrote: post #127
pixl97 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Screwing with a stop sign because you don't like it is a great way to end up on the wrong end of a huge civil liability lawsuit

lol the idea that any enforcement to that degree exists in the US is a fiction.

The fact that you used the term "enforcement" here makes me presume you are thinking of criminal consequences. But the grandparent comment talks about civil liability. Certainly if there were injuries at this intersection and they knew who had altered the signage, attorneys would argue liability on the part of the vandal. They'd get settlements if not win cases this way.

In addition, if there were serious injuries here you should also expect some criminal consequences. But if your point was to suggest that they won't hunt you down just because someone said there was mischief here, I tend to agree.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#133

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #68
masfuerte wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So use a mini roundabout. They are common in the UK. It's just a painted circle with a slight hump, in the middle of a four-way junction. Vehicles can drive over it (and larger ones have to) but it indicates to everyone that they have to give way to traffic from the right and don't have to stop otherwise. They typically aren't big enough for multiple vehicles to be turning a corner at the same time. They fit anywhere…

It won’t work for a four way stop with lots of traffic, it will just make things worse actually.

Why not?

Here in the UK, we've got lots of roundabouts from tiny mini-roundabouts (some of which have four junctions) that could easily fit almost anywhere, all the way to gigantic multi-roundabout junctions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon) ).

I can't think of a situation where it's more efficient to have four vehicles all stop at a junction (busy four way stop) vs a roundabout which will allow one or two vehicles to join the roundabout without having to stop.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#134

Post by fc417fc802 »

tootie wrote: post #120
XorNot wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4 ways stops should be roundabouts, but the US is allergic to them for some reason.

At this point in time, why can't we do smart crossings? Like have some sensors and software to change lights based on real-time traffic conditions.

Assuming you're referring to the US, we do. They're all over the place. But they're a lot more expensive and complicated than roundabouts and depending on the traffic pattern they can still be less efficient.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#135

Post by estimator7292 »

tootie wrote: post #120
XorNot wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4 ways stops should be roundabouts, but the US is allergic to them for some reason.

At this point in time, why can't we do smart crossings? Like have some sensors and software to change lights based on real-time traffic conditions.

Because those systems are exorbitantly expensive and require digging up the road to install sensors. If there's a stop sign instead of lights, you need to dig up more private land to run power and set the utility poles to hang the lights from.

A stop sign costs like a hundred bucks, you stick it in the ground, job done. Installing an automated traffic system takes multiple days, a full crew, and heavy equipment.

Plus I'm sure that in today's capitalist hellscape it's also a subscription service that your tax money needs to pay monthly, likely for every individual intersection. Stop signs need maintaining every decade or two.

The answer is money and who's willing to part with it.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#136

Post by estimator7292 »

lillecarl wrote: post #124
tootie wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point in time, why can't we do smart crossings? Like have some sensors and software to change lights based on real-time traffic conditions.

You don't have this? In Sweden we have sensors to detect cars, pedestrians and bicycles to shift the lights as appropriate. During rush-hour those features are turned off/discarded in favor of "grid optimized" timings. In Netherlands they prioritize pedestrians and cyclists when it's raining. We also have LED lights in our traffic lights which I've come to understand is a saftey hazard in USA because snow falls somet…

We do have them, but it's so expensive that we only use them on the biggest and busiest intersections. We also switched to LED several decades ago.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#137

Post by estimator7292 »

Ekaros wrote: post #88
XorNot wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4 ways stops should be roundabouts, but the US is allergic to them for some reason.

It just sounds insane concept. Why stop signs, when you could have equal intersection. Slow enough to observe traffic from right. If none passthrough. Stop signs should be special. Reserved only to those places where there simply is not enough visibility or time to observe.

That requires a level of consideration for others that your average American simply cannot comprehend. No stop sign means you have unlimited right of way bestowed by god himself and fuck anyone and everyone else.

The other option is the person who sits at a 4-way stop until all traffic in a one block radius stops before they move, totally ignoring right of way and all sense of safety and propriety.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#138

Post by fc417fc802 »

reactordev wrote: post #104
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn’t the rule either, I guess parent made their point. The first person who stops goes next, right away only matters if their is ambiguity in who stopped first.

This is not correct. There are clear instructions on how a 4-way stop should operate and its yielding to the right, if opposite cars are both moving forward, both can go, otherwise the car who has initiative has the right of way. Every driver must come to a complete stop. This is true in every state. https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/rightofwayrules....

> This is not correct.

It is correct and is literally the first bullet on the pdf you linked. First to stop is first to go.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#139

Post by naasking »

reactordev wrote: post #104
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn’t the rule either, I guess parent made their point. The first person who stops goes next, right away only matters if their is ambiguity in who stopped first.

This is not correct. There are clear instructions on how a 4-way stop should operate and its yielding to the right, if opposite cars are both moving forward, both can go, otherwise the car who has initiative has the right of way. Every driver must come to a complete stop. This is true in every state. https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/rightofwayrules....

> This is not correct. There are clear instructions on how a 4-way stop should operate and its yielding to the right

Yielding to the right only applies if you stop at roughly the same time, otherwise first to stop goes first. It's the first bullet point in your link.

Re: Autonomous cars, drones cheerfully obey prompt injection by road sign

#140

Post by Klaus23 »

They are analysing VLM here, but it's not as if any other neural network architecture wouldn't be vulnerable. We have seen this in classifier models that can be tricked by innocuous-looking objects, we have seen it in LLMs, and we will most likely see it in any end-to-end self-driving model.

If an end-to-end model is used and there is no second, more traditional safety self-driving stack, like the one Mercedes will use in their upcoming Level 2++ driving assistant, then the model can be manipulated essentially without limit. Even a more traditional stack can be vulnerable if not carefully designed. It is realistic to imagine that one printed page stuck on a lamppost could cause the car to reliably crash.

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