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AI’s impact on engineering jobs may be different than expected

semiengineering.com

131–140 of 231 posts

Re: AI’s impact on engineering jobs may be different than expected

#131

I am very tired of seeing every random person's speculation (framed as real insight) on what's going to happen as they try to signify that they are super involved in AI and super on top of it and therefore still worthy of value and importance in the economy.

You have to understand the people in the article are execs from the chip EDA (Electronic Design Automation) industry. It's full of dinosaurs who have resisted innovation for the past 30 years. Of course they're going to be blowing hot air about how they're "embracing AI". It's a threat to their business model. I'm a little biased though since I work in chip design and I maintain an open source EDA project. I agree wi…

It’s in software too. Old guard leadership wanting “AI” as a badge but not knowing what to do with it. They are just sprinkling it into their processes and exfiltrating data while engineers continue to make a mess of things.

Unlike real AI projects that utilize it for workflows, or generating models that do a thing. Nope, they are taking a Jira ticket, asking copilot, reviewing copilot, responding to Jira ticket. They’re all ripe for automation.

Re: AI’s impact on engineering jobs may be different than expected

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reasons for learning to drive a manual transmission aren't really about the transmission, they're about the learning and the effects on the learner. The more you get hands on with the car and in touch with the car the more deeply you understand it. Once you have the deepish understanding, you can automate it for convenience after that. It's the same reason we should always teach long division before we give stude…

I agree with all of those statements - I always told my wife that I'd get our kids a underpowered manual so that they're always busy rowing gears and can't text and drive. But in the bigger picture, where does it stop? You had to do manual spark advance while driving in the 30's You had to set the weights in the distributor to adjust spark advance in the 70's Now the computer has a programed set of tables for spark a…

i have been programming for 40years.. but still have not dipped in this brave new world of shakespeare-taught coding-LLMs.

IMO there's one basic difference with this new "generative" stuff.. it's not deterministic. Or not yet. All previous generations "AI" were deterministic.. but died.

Generating is not a problem. i have made medium-ish projects - say 200+kloc python/js - having 50%-70% of code generated (by other code - so you maintain that meta-code, and the "language" recipes-code it interprets) - but it has been all deterministic. If shit happens - or some change is needed, anywhere on the requirements-down-to-deployment chain - someone can eventually figure out where and what. It is reasoned. And most importantly, once done, it stays done. And if i regenerate it 1000 times, it will be same.

Did this made me redundant? Not at all. Producing software is much easier this way, the recipes are much shorter, there's less space for errors etc etc. But still - Higher abstractions are even harder to grasp than boilerplate. Which has quite a cost.. you cannot throw any newbie on it and expect results.

So, fine-tuning assembly - or manual transmission - might be gonna-be-obsolete skill, as it is not required.. except in rare conditions. But it is helpful to learn stuff. To flex your mind/body about alternatives, possibilities, shortcuts, wear-and-tear, fatigue, aha-moments and what not. And then move these as concepts, onto another domains, which are not as commoditized yet.

Another thing is.. Exupery in Land-of-people talks about technology (airplanes in his case), and how without technology, mankind workarounds/ avoids places/things that are not "friendly", like twisting roads around hellscapes. While technology cuts all straight through those - flies above all that, perfect for when it works - and turns into nightmare when it breaks right in the middle of such unfriendly "area".

dunno. maybe i am getting old..

Re: AI’s impact on engineering jobs may be different than expected

#133
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, can we just STFU about AI and jobs already? We've long since passed the point where there was a meaningful amount of work to be done for every adult. The number of "jobs" available is now merely a function of who controls the massive stockpiles of accumulated resources and how they choose to dole them out. Attack that, not the technology.

> Also, can we just STFU about AI and jobs already? Phew, yes I'm with you... > We've long since passed the point where there was a meaningful amount of work to be done for every adult. Have we? It feels like a lot of stuff in my life is unnecessarily expensive or hard to afford. > The number of "jobs" available is now merely a function of who controls the massive stockpiles of accumulated resources and how they choo…

> Have we? It feels like a lot of stuff in my life is unnecessarily expensive or hard to afford.

We have, yes. If you notice things to be too expensive it's a result of class warfare. Have you noticed how many people got _obscenely rich_ in the last 25 years? Yes, that's where money saved by technology went to.

Re: AI’s impact on engineering jobs may be different than expected

#134
post #112

I am very tired of seeing every random person's speculation (framed as real insight) on what's going to happen as they try to signify that they are super involved in AI and super on top of it and therefore still worthy of value and importance in the economy.

Also, can we just STFU about AI and jobs already? We've long since passed the point where there was a meaningful amount of work to be done for every adult. The number of "jobs" available is now merely a function of who controls the massive stockpiles of accumulated resources and how they choose to dole them out. Attack that, not the technology.

Great point. The people who popularized 'the end of history' were right about it from the PoV of innovation benefiting humans. It's been marginal gains since. Any appearance of significant gains (in the eyes of a minority of powerful people) has been the result of concentration in fewer hands (zero-sum game).

The focus of politics after the 90s should have shifted to facilitating competition to equalize distribution of existing wealth and should have promoted competition of ideas, but instead, the governments of the world got together and enacted policies which would suppress competition, at the highest scale imaginable. What they did was much worse than doing nothing.

Now, the closest solution we can aim for (IMO) is UBI. It's a late solution because a lot of people's lives have already been ruined through no fault of their own. On the plus side it made other people much more resilient, but if we keep going down this path, there is nothing more to learn; only serves to reinforce the existing idea that everything is a scam. This is bound to affect people's behaviors in terrible ways.

Imagine a dystopian future where the system spends a huge amount of resources first financially oppressing people to the point of insanity, then monitoring and controlling them to try to get them to avoid doing harm... When the system could just have given them (less) money and avoided this downward spiral into insanity to begin with and then you wouldn't even need to monitor them because they would be allowed to survive whilst being their own sane, good-natured self. We have to course-correct and are approaching a point of no return when the resentment becomes severe and permanent. Nobody can survive in a world where the majority of people are insane.

Re: AI’s impact on engineering jobs may be different than expected

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically I feel like our QA team is busier than ever since most e2e user-ish tests require coordinating tools that is just beyond current LLM capabilities. We are pumping out features faster that require more QA to verify.

this is just an intermediate thing until the tooling and models catch up

Progress is not always linear, Until it actually does it we can't say anything. This assumption is only peddled by AI companies to get the investments and is not a scientific assumption.

Re: AI’s impact on engineering jobs may be different than expected

#136

"Most people who drive cars now couldn’t find the radiator cap if they were paid to, and that’s fine." That's not fine IMO. That is a basic bit of knowledge about a car and if you don't know where the radiator cap is you will eventually have to pay through the nose to someone who does know (and possibly be stranded somewhere). Knowing how to check and fill coolant isn't like knowing how to rebuild a transmission. It'…

Ironically, many cars don't have radiator caps, only reservoirs. Modern cars, for the most part, do not leak coolant unless there's a problem. They operate a high pressure. Most people, for their own safety, should not pop the hood of a car.

Aren't radiator caps supposed to let excessive pressure escape?

You fill up the reservoir, but the cap is still there.

Re: AI’s impact on engineering jobs may be different than expected

#137
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same situation (50 last week, 2 kids) though have been unemployed for a year. Part of me thinks that, rather than taking jobs, AI is actually the only reason a lot of jobs still exist. The rest of tech is dead. Having worked in consulting a while ago, you can kind of feel it when you're approaching the point where you've implemented all the high value stuff for a client and, even though there's stuff you could do, th…

> The only investment money is flowing into AI That's so not true. Of the 23 companies we reviewed last year maybe 3 had significant AI in their workflow, the rest were just solid businesses delivering stuff that people actually need. I have no doubt that that proportion will grow significantly, and that this growth will probably happen this year but to suggest that outside of AI there is no investment is just not co…

That's good to hear actually. It's usually a downer when a strongly held belief is contradicted with hard evidence, but I'm excited to hear that there's life yet in the industry outside of AI. Any specific trends or themes you can share?

Re: AI’s impact on engineering jobs may be different than expected

#138
post #19
post #9

The main thing to understand about the impact of AI tools: Somehow the more senior you are [in the field of use], the better results you get. You can run faster and get more done! If you're good, you get great results faster. If you're bad, you get bad results faster. You still gotta understand what you're doing. GeLLMan Amnesia is real.

Right: these things amplify existing skills. The more skill you have, the bigger the effect after it gets amplified.

I jumped into a new-to-me Typescript application and asked Claude to build a thing, in vague terms matching my own uncertainty and unfamiliarity. The result was similarly vague garbage. Three shots and I threw them all away.

Then I watched a someone familiar with the codebase ask Claude to build the thing, in precise terms matching their expertise and understanding of the code. It worked flawlessly the first time.

Neither of us "coded", but their skill with the underlying theory of the program allowed them to ask the right questions, infinitely more productive in this case.

Skill and understanding matter now more than ever! LLMs are pushing us rapidly away from specialized technicians to theory builders.

Re: AI’s impact on engineering jobs may be different than expected

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only investment money is flowing into AI That's so not true. Of the 23 companies we reviewed last year maybe 3 had significant AI in their workflow, the rest were just solid businesses delivering stuff that people actually need. I have no doubt that that proportion will grow significantly, and that this growth will probably happen this year but to suggest that outside of AI there is no investment is just not co…

That's good to hear actually. It's usually a downer when a strongly held belief is contradicted with hard evidence, but I'm excited to hear that there's life yet in the industry outside of AI. Any specific trends or themes you can share?

Energy is a much larger theme than it was in the years before (obviously, since we're in the EU and energy overall is a larger theme in society here. This has a reflection in the VC market, but it also is part of a much larger trend, climate change and CO2 neutrality).

Another trend - and this surprised us - is a much stronger presence of really hard tech and associated industries and finally - for obvious reasons, so not really surprising - more parties active in defense.

Re: AI’s impact on engineering jobs may be different than expected

#140
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, can we just STFU about AI and jobs already? We've long since passed the point where there was a meaningful amount of work to be done for every adult. The number of "jobs" available is now merely a function of who controls the massive stockpiles of accumulated resources and how they choose to dole them out. Attack that, not the technology.

> Also, can we just STFU about AI and jobs already? Phew, yes I'm with you... > We've long since passed the point where there was a meaningful amount of work to be done for every adult. Have we? It feels like a lot of stuff in my life is unnecessarily expensive or hard to afford. > The number of "jobs" available is now merely a function of who controls the massive stockpiles of accumulated resources and how they choo…

> Have we? It feels like a lot of stuff in my life is unnecessarily expensive or hard to afford.

Look at a bunch of job postings and ask yourself if that work is going to make things cheaper for you or better for society. We're not building railroads and telephone networks anymore. One person can grow food for 10,000. Stuff is expensive because free market capitalism allows it and some people are pathologically greedy. Runaway optimizers with no real goal state in mind except "more."

> How? What are you proposing exactly?

In a word, socialism. It's a social and political problem, not a technical one. These systems have fallen way behind technology and allowed crazy accumulations of wealth in the hands of very few. Push for legislation to redistribute the wealth to the people.

If someone invents a robot to do the work of McDonalds workers, that should liberate them from having to do that kind of work. This is the dream and the goal of technology. Instead, under our current system, one person gets a megayacht and thousands of people are "unemployed." With no change to the amount of important work being done.

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