Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

4k tons of potatoes to be given away for free in Berlin

the-berliner.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 154 posts

Re: 4k tons of potatoes to be given away for free in Berlin

#131

Post by rootsudo »

tmp10423288442 wrote: post #128
Voultapher wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salting your ground water is also a second-order effect. The way you put that statement into quotes shows that you value human well being over everything else. Personally I don't. Life on earth is a co-op and we don't win by being the last ones standing, as we are desperately trying right now.

When I hear people like you, I pray that natural selection will remove people like you from the population faster than mutations create them.

Wouldn't natural selection rewrd that behavior more?

Re: 4k tons of potatoes to be given away for free in Berlin

#132

Post by tharkun__ »

Xylakant wrote: post #107
palmotea wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another current exhibit is the prohibition of using salt for removing snow and ice from the pavements because it's "bad for plants and the ground water". While that is true to some degree, the Berlin policy conveniently ignores all second-order effects: Sidewalks are more slippery, more people get hurt. Rigorously considering second-order (and greater) effects is a massive undertaking, though. Like: how do you even…

The problem is not salting or not - the problem is that the house owners are liable for cleaning the sidewalk and they all outsourced it to the same companies. And the companies unsurprisingly all fail to deliver on their obligations because they take on way more customers they could possibly handle. The result is as expected - nothing gets done. A shovel and broom, maybe some grit would have been enough. But there’s…

Or maybe don't make everyone responsible for the public roadway/sidewalk in front of their house and instead have the people that are responsible for all other things public roadway/sidewalk be responsible?

Works elsewhere, why not in Germany, where taxes should actually be even better able to cover it? [yes I know people in Germany, even specifically in Berlin and no this is not a Berlin specific thing]

Like where I live, the city also says not to use salt whenever you can and use alternatives and they themselves do not salt the roads in our town either, except for the major in and out ones. This is Canada btw. so we do get a load of snow and ice. They use grit and in spring the city sends through a grit cleaning crew (for reuse next winter). Except for the parts that make it onto lawns from snow plows pushing it onto your property. There it's your job i.e. some people put down mats in fall or they use brushes to get it out of the lawn and back onto the street where it can be picked up. Just yesterday, it was above freezing and the city snow plows went and used the warmer weather to scrape lots of ice off the road!

Re: 4k tons of potatoes to be given away for free in Berlin

#133

Post by [deleted] »

f1shy wrote: post #48
sdoering wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to non profits, 1 in 7 Americans, 1 in 5 American children: https://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america

In the site says “FACT - 100% of Counties - Hunger exists in everywhere – no community is untouched” What I pretty much suspected. But that in USA 20% of children don’t get enough? That is a big TIL for my ignorance. A sister comment states some child eat only at school. Boy I thought (in 2 figure percentage) was only 3rd world.

[deleted]

Re: 4k tons of potatoes to be given away for free in Berlin

#134

Post by Xylakant »

tharkun__ wrote: post #132
Xylakant wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not salting or not - the problem is that the house owners are liable for cleaning the sidewalk and they all outsourced it to the same companies. And the companies unsurprisingly all fail to deliver on their obligations because they take on way more customers they could possibly handle. The result is as expected - nothing gets done. A shovel and broom, maybe some grit would have been enough. But there’s…

Or maybe don't make everyone responsible for the public roadway/sidewalk in front of their house and instead have the people that are responsible for all other things public roadway/sidewalk be responsible? Works elsewhere, why not in Germany, where taxes should actually be even better able to cover it? [yes I know people in Germany, even specifically in Berlin and no this is not a Berlin specific thing] Like where I…

Funny that you would propose such a practical and simple solution. This has been proposed by the Green Party in Berlin and I’m surprised you didn’t hear the wailing choir of house owners across the Atlantic. “Too impractical”, “too costly”, “who would pay for that?”.

Thing is, the current system works well for all people except the ones that want to walk on the icy pavement. Politicians aren’t responsible. House owners shed the responsibility to a contractor. Many contractors regard this essentially as largely free money and just weigh the cost of a potential lawsuit against the accumulated income. It’s extremely good at diluting the responsibility so that no affected individual can effectively do anything about it. Why change a system that works so well for all of the people except the ones affected by the outcome?

Re: 4k tons of potatoes to be given away for free in Berlin

#135

Post by elric »

tharkun__ wrote: post #132
Xylakant wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not salting or not - the problem is that the house owners are liable for cleaning the sidewalk and they all outsourced it to the same companies. And the companies unsurprisingly all fail to deliver on their obligations because they take on way more customers they could possibly handle. The result is as expected - nothing gets done. A shovel and broom, maybe some grit would have been enough. But there’s…

Or maybe don't make everyone responsible for the public roadway/sidewalk in front of their house and instead have the people that are responsible for all other things public roadway/sidewalk be responsible? Works elsewhere, why not in Germany, where taxes should actually be even better able to cover it? [yes I know people in Germany, even specifically in Berlin and no this is not a Berlin specific thing] Like where I…

The same liability issue exists in Belgium, with very similar results. Some people will clear the pavement in front of their homes, others won't. Some don't have the time, some don't have the ability. Some try but make it worse, by brushing aside the snow without salting a thin leftover layer can easily turn into black ice.

Our tax rate is insane. This is a responsibility/liability that should rest with the governments, but they'd never get it done.

My hot take is that the govt ought to facillitate the process, e.g. by providing salt/grit/shovels/salt spreaders, so that people at least have a realistic chance of getting it done.

Re: 4k tons of potatoes to be given away for free in Berlin

#137

Post by StanislavPetrov »

tharkun__ wrote: post #132
Xylakant wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not salting or not - the problem is that the house owners are liable for cleaning the sidewalk and they all outsourced it to the same companies. And the companies unsurprisingly all fail to deliver on their obligations because they take on way more customers they could possibly handle. The result is as expected - nothing gets done. A shovel and broom, maybe some grit would have been enough. But there’s…

Or maybe don't make everyone responsible for the public roadway/sidewalk in front of their house and instead have the people that are responsible for all other things public roadway/sidewalk be responsible? Works elsewhere, why not in Germany, where taxes should actually be even better able to cover it? [yes I know people in Germany, even specifically in Berlin and no this is not a Berlin specific thing] Like where I…

>Or maybe don't make everyone responsible for the public roadway/sidewalk in front of their house and instead have the people that are responsible for all other things public roadway/sidewalk be responsible?

Here in New York the problem is opposite. Every home and business owner is responsible for quickly clearing any walkways/sidewalks/driveways they own and are in front of their homes or businesses. New York is very litigious. As a consequence, unless someone is unable, way off the beaten path or doesn't care about getting sued for huge money, most everyone, especially businesses, made sure that their sidewalks and pathways are completely clear of snow and ice to avoid a ruinous lawsuit. On the flip side, properties owned by the county, city, town or other public entities are far more likely to be unmaintained and covered in snow and ice. In general I'm against living in an overly litigious society, but when it comes to snow and ice clearance it certainly has an impact here. This is all in spite of extremely high tax rates (property, income, sales and otherwise).

Re: 4k tons of potatoes to be given away for free in Berlin

#138

Post by seec »

Potatoes have low caloric density (80 kcal/100 g), so the ideal would be to dry them and store them in a sustainable form like ready-to-use mash.

At 2000 kcal/day average caloric expenditure, you could feed 1.6 million people for a day. Or 3.2 if it was only half the diet. That's a lot of food indeed!

The problem is most of the volume/weight is water; that's not very convenient. In comparison, an equivalent volume of cereals would feed 7 million people and are much easier to store long term, they are very efficient !

Re: 4k tons of potatoes to be given away for free in Berlin

#139

Post by seec »

uniq7 wrote: post #125
Xylakant wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A ton is a big bag (yes, they get delivered in bags and that’s the name for them), which is pretty exactly a cubic meter. 4000 tons is hence a 2x2meter tower, 1km high. Or 20mx20m, 10m high.not sure how high you can stack TV towers or Asian elephants. The conversion is left as an exercise to the reader.

> which is pretty exactly a cubic meter That would be if we were talking about water (and at 4ºC if we want to be "exact"), but potatoes have a different density and cannot fill the space entirely due to their irregular shapes. Are you saying that those two things cancel themselves out and the result is that 1 cubic meter of potatoes is "exactly" 1 tone?

They are not as volumetrically efficient, but it's probably not too far from the approximation plus 10-15% I think. Potatoes are mostly water.

Re: 4k tons of potatoes to be given away for free in Berlin

#140

Post by frm88 »

literalAardvark wrote: post #84
olieidel wrote: post #64

Berlin is a great place to observe policies with good intentions, yet negative second-order effects. Distributing free potatoes will likely cause waste somewhere else, as e.g. people will buy less potatoes in supermarkets. The waste just becomes less visible as supermarkets dispose of food every day. Another current exhibit is the prohibition of using salt for removing snow and ice from the pavements because it's "ba…

You could always just clean the snow instead of salting it. It's not rocket science.

It's not about the snow, snow is easy. It's about black ice of which we seem to have more in the last few years. Gravel doesn't cut it here - I broke my wrist last year and this year I salted the paved path to the front gate, I don't want to repeat 8 hours waiting in the ER, 2 surgeries and 3 months more or less out of commission.
Post reply on HN