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Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

andrew.grahamyooll.com

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Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#131

Post by azuanrb »

Dave_Rosenthal wrote: post #101
crazygringo wrote: post #63

While this is true... it's also letting yourself be massively taken advantage of, and underpaid. Yes, the best way to get promoted is to do work above your level. The problem is, you're not getting paid what you deserve for that . If you're always doing this, you're always being underpaid by a full level . Which is why much better advice is to try to get promoted by switching companies and jumping a level in the proc…

As a boss-man myself, I’ve seen this “don’t let them take advantage of you” sentiment expressed in many discussions about comp and promotions, but I can’t really say I understand it. Am I just out of touch? As I read it, the article is simply trying to help people understand what kind of work is valuable to a company and therefore what they should focus on to make themselves valuable. I presume that making yourself v…

You are not out of touch. You may simply have spent time at great companies.

The OP’s advice is solid, but it assumes your manager will actively help promote you or work toward that outcome. In some companies, or with some managers, that support does not exist. There may be no incentive for them to do so. This does not necessarily come from ill intent, but rather from different organizational expectations.

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#132

Post by tonymet »

bluGill wrote: post #40
tonymet wrote: post #28

I’ve participated and appealed to promotions committees at a few big tech companies and the principle for achieving the promotion is sustained performance for a half or 2 at the next level, judged by a number of dimensions. A couple drivers are revenue impact, business direction, or how well you are enabling others to succeed. If the staff is large enough, calibrations are done to find template team members at the hi…

The problem is when you reach SR the next step is often so far removed that you can't have that impact without not doing your real job. A jr to mid-level engineer: just be better at what you do. However Sr to the next level is a whole different way of working and you can't do those things and also write the code that a sr is expected to write.

that's what the money's for

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#133

Post by anal_reactor »

Dave_Rosenthal wrote: post #101
crazygringo wrote: post #63

While this is true... it's also letting yourself be massively taken advantage of, and underpaid. Yes, the best way to get promoted is to do work above your level. The problem is, you're not getting paid what you deserve for that . If you're always doing this, you're always being underpaid by a full level . Which is why much better advice is to try to get promoted by switching companies and jumping a level in the proc…

As a boss-man myself, I’ve seen this “don’t let them take advantage of you” sentiment expressed in many discussions about comp and promotions, but I can’t really say I understand it. Am I just out of touch? As I read it, the article is simply trying to help people understand what kind of work is valuable to a company and therefore what they should focus on to make themselves valuable. I presume that making yourself v…

The problem is that we're simultaneously talking about healthy and rotten companies. In a healthy company your manager tells you "if you want a promotion, this and this needs to happen" and then you get a promotion and a pay raise. Meanwhile in my company:

- I was given a project "please convince half of the company to drop everything and do work for our team"

- I told my manager "I don't know what you're expecting from me" and he said "I don't care"

- A coworker completed his project, but then was told that the promotion requirements changed

- A coworker was promoted, said that it was a big mistake because pay rose 10% but responsibilities 200%

The thing is, online discourse has little reason to discuss healthy companies. Sharing tips and tricks how to survive in a dysfunctional organization is much more interesting.

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#134

Post by didntknowyou »

this is recommending an employee work outside their scope in the hopes of getting promoted. it really depends on the company culture and if internal promotions are common otherwise it's just you doing your manager's work, and i don't see why anyone should be taking on more responsbilities without getting paid for it.

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#135

Post by 972811 »

ryandrake wrote: post #95
gloryjulio wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Promotions are not a reward for past performance. Instead, they are a bet that you will contribute more towards those goals with a promotion than without one. Actually, you operate on the next level for certain amount of the time. You work with your manager to file for your promotion case. That's how the typical big corps work with promotions. So technically, it is using your past experience to prove that you ar…

> Actually, you operate on the next level for certain amount of the time. You work with your manager to file for your promotion case. That's how the typical big corps work with promotions. This has always struck me as a pretty juicy deal going for the corporation. They get N years of "next level" work out of you while still being able to pay those N years in "previous level" salary. Good deal for them. How ridiculous…

It's all about risk/reward tradeoffs. Once you get past the junior->senior level, each promotion is hiring you for a completely different job. As an individual, there are only a few ways to get that job: 1. Trial run at your current company (could be wasting your time, but also you have domain knowledge and relationships to help) 2. Join a smaller company and hope it grows (could rapidly accelerate growth due to needs, but could also go very poorly if the company stagnates) 3. Try to lateral to another company with a promotion (pretty difficult in general)

It's not really that juicy for the corp. If they hire (promote) you without experience, they are hiring someone without experience for a position and then have to go and hire again to replace someone else. Vs. just hiring someone with experience

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#136

Post by [deleted] »

amflare wrote: post #5

Taking on extra responsibility is all well and good until someone figures out that they can just get you to do more work for the same amount of money. At that point your only option is to move on, because if you stop performing at the "expected" level due to lack of reciprocation, suddenly you have "performance issues".

[deleted]

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#137

Post by whstl »

WaitWaitWha wrote: post #18

My experience at several large companies I worked for, the promotion comes because the activities are already at the new, higher level. i.e., working at SVP/level 7 when officially at VP/level 6 for a period when the promotion is offered. Good or bad, this is how the industry I work in promotes. I think the best approach is to take on extra, above position responsibilities, accountabilities after discussion with supe…

I agree. I'd argue that if you can't start a conversation with your superior about future promotions and job goals, you're probably not gonna get that promotion anyway.

Your manager is gonna be the one asking their own manager to pay you more, and will be the one doing reviews.

Also: stepping on other people's toes can crush team morale, which can sure delay promotions. Saw it happening. Keeping the manager in the loop is a good way to avoid it.

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#138

Post by roadside_picnic »

Dave_Rosenthal wrote: post #101
crazygringo wrote: post #63

While this is true... it's also letting yourself be massively taken advantage of, and underpaid. Yes, the best way to get promoted is to do work above your level. The problem is, you're not getting paid what you deserve for that . If you're always doing this, you're always being underpaid by a full level . Which is why much better advice is to try to get promoted by switching companies and jumping a level in the proc…

As a boss-man myself, I’ve seen this “don’t let them take advantage of you” sentiment expressed in many discussions about comp and promotions, but I can’t really say I understand it. Am I just out of touch? As I read it, the article is simply trying to help people understand what kind of work is valuable to a company and therefore what they should focus on to make themselves valuable. I presume that making yourself v…

> I presume that making yourself valuable pays dividends, including promotions!

This has not been my experience at all. I've had multiple positions where I took on multiple challenges and responsibilities outside my role, reshaped the team and took the lead on getting things shipped, made sure my manager was more successful, and spent a lot of energy making all this happens... for nothing.

> and divorced from how I’ve seen successful people grow and make big bucks in tech.

Almost all of the people I've seen grow successfully never do any of this "take on extra responsibility" stuff. The vast majority were early hires that got along well with leadership in a fast growing company. Most of the promotions I've gotten felt almost arbitrary, and largely happened from being at the right place at the right time.

To be honest, I remain a hard worker who takes on extra responsibilities, simply because I enjoy it. I like solving problems and shipping things, it makes work fun. But I don't expect any recognition for it (even on annual reviews). The biggest reward for me is helping other people be successful and building cool things. Anyone working hard for a promotion or any recognition from the company is very likely wasting their time.

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#139

Post by Magmalgebra »

ryandrake wrote: post #95
gloryjulio wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Promotions are not a reward for past performance. Instead, they are a bet that you will contribute more towards those goals with a promotion than without one. Actually, you operate on the next level for certain amount of the time. You work with your manager to file for your promotion case. That's how the typical big corps work with promotions. So technically, it is using your past experience to prove that you ar…

> Actually, you operate on the next level for certain amount of the time. You work with your manager to file for your promotion case. That's how the typical big corps work with promotions. This has always struck me as a pretty juicy deal going for the corporation. They get N years of "next level" work out of you while still being able to pay those N years in "previous level" salary. Good deal for them. How ridiculous…

> This has always struck me as a pretty juicy deal going for the corporation.

It's a good deal if you deserve the promo. Giving someone the opportunity to take on projects at the next level and having them not deliver can be enormously expensive. The higher the level, the more expensive it is.

Re: Try to take my position: The best promotion advice I ever got

#140

Post by ggoo »

stronglikedan wrote: post #30
ggoo wrote: post #15

While this may work, it just seems like incredibly unhealthy advice to give or to take. People should be able to focus on their work without being expected to take up random side quests, and if there is a career path, make the requirements clear.

> make the requirements clear idealistic, but more often than not, unrealistic, unfortunately

most everything is unrealistic if we just assume it to be so and give up on seeing the world in any different way.
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