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Italian Competition Authority Fines Apple $115M for Abusing Dominant Position

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Re: Italian Competition Authority Fines Apple $115M for Abusing Dominant Position

#131

Post by esperent »

runako wrote: post #130
esperent wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called the Shop Like a Local rule, from 2018. Basically, Apple can stop selling developer accounts in Italy if they wish. They might run into issues on discrimination grounds, but it would probably be a long fight. However, they can't prevent an Italian developer from purchasing a developer account from another EU country. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/geo-block...

I don't understand EU law, but wouldn't the country where the purchase happened be the one whose laws govern the transaction? In other words, if an Italian purchases a developer account from Germany, wouldn't any disputes be handled in German court? (Also, I would assume Apple would require a developer to have a legitimate physical business address in a country where they allow developers. I don't imagine this would…

> I don't imagine this would be an easy transaction.

The point of this law is that it must be an easy transaction. I'm sure there are many companies not following the law properly and getting away with it, but it does seem like Apple will be watched closely to ensure they are doing everything correctly, as a result of their malicious compliance with every previous ruling.

Re: Italian Competition Authority Fines Apple $115M for Abusing Dominant Position

#132

Post by sMarsIntruder »

dinkblam wrote: post #33

no year goes by without Italy imposing random >100m€ fines for 2-3 american tech companies. whenever they need money, they just hit another one without care whether actual laws were violated. the amount they take has no correlation to what has been blamed, only to how much the companies can afford to pay without threatening to leave the country. the 'Guardia di Finanza' has a long standing tradition of trying to exto…

Completely agree with this analysis.

Especially on the GDF aspect which is definitely true and impacting both SMBs and big Corps.

When the majority of the GDP is generated by public expenditures, you need to extort money. Which is pretty bad but that’s standard practice.

Re: Italian Competition Authority Fines Apple $115M for Abusing Dominant Position

#133

Post by runako »

esperent wrote: post #131
runako wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand EU law, but wouldn't the country where the purchase happened be the one whose laws govern the transaction? In other words, if an Italian purchases a developer account from Germany, wouldn't any disputes be handled in German court? (Also, I would assume Apple would require a developer to have a legitimate physical business address in a country where they allow developers. I don't imagine this would…

> I don't imagine this would be an easy transaction. The point of this law is that it must be an easy transaction. I'm sure there are many companies not following the law properly and getting away with it, but it does seem like Apple will be watched closely to ensure they are doing everything correctly, as a result of their malicious compliance with every previous ruling.

What does ("when the foreign customer accepts the conditions applied domestically") mean for a service that is not offered in Italy, but is in Germany? Wouldn't that mean the Italian buyer has to accept the terms offered outside Italy (and thus preclude a case like this one)?

Re: Italian Competition Authority Fines Apple $115M for Abusing Dominant Position

#134

Post by YetAnotherNick »

Someone1234 wrote: post #52
earthnail wrote: post #37

Surprised by the negative comments here. Usually HN univocally complains about Apple‘s dominant App Store. Now a government fines them for it and some people are upset?

It is a nationalistic thing. When foreign governments fine "American" companies, they get all up in arms, while constantly asking the US Government to provide better consumer protections and promote competition. This position commonly ignores that these fines are against these companies position within the market for which they're fined. Meaning that the EU will look at the EU profits and fine relative to those, so t…

EU doesn't fine relative to EU profits, it fines relative to global revenue.

Re: Italian Competition Authority Fines Apple $115M for Abusing Dominant Position

#136

Post by goobatrooba »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #134
Someone1234 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a nationalistic thing. When foreign governments fine "American" companies, they get all up in arms, while constantly asking the US Government to provide better consumer protections and promote competition. This position commonly ignores that these fines are against these companies position within the market for which they're fined. Meaning that the EU will look at the EU profits and fine relative to those, so t…

EU doesn't fine relative to EU profits, it fines relative to global revenue.

You confidently state that EU fines relative to global revenue, but you are wrong.

The case linked above is an Italian competition authority, so I'm any case, no EU level calculation.

There are various legal bases applicable at EU level (competition, GDPR, ...) so depending on the case which rules are applied varies. But in general these guidelines apply, which explicitly state the basis as follows:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

> In determining the basic amount of the fine to be imposed, the Commission will take the value of the undertaking's sales of goods or services to which the infringement directly or indirectly relates in the relevant geographic area within the EEA. It will normally take the sales made by the undertaking during the last full business year of its participation in the infringement (hereafter ‘value of sales’).

E.g. most recent EU cases as per their press website note that they applied these guidelines:

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_25_... https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_25_...

Re: Italian Competition Authority Fines Apple $115M for Abusing Dominant Position

#137

Post by goobatrooba »

dmitrygr wrote: post #129
earthnail wrote: post #37

Surprised by the negative comments here. Usually HN univocally complains about Apple‘s dominant App Store. Now a government fines them for it and some people are upset?

probably due to this: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/linasbeliunas_insane-the-eu-n... EU now makes more money fining US tech than it does taxing its own public internet companies

The post you link, and the following comments, directly contradict what you are saying.

Re: Italian Competition Authority Fines Apple $115M for Abusing Dominant Position

#138

Post by chrisfinazzo »

earthnail wrote: post #104
wrxd wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s surprising. The ideal setup for many people here is an OS that gives them control over what they run and over their data. An App Store that restrict us from running the application we want is bad. An App Store that prevents applications from tracking us is good. The former restricts our freedom, the latter restricts the freedom of developers who want to take advantage of our data.

Except the Apple App Store literally tracks you, which in turn powers Apple Search Ads.

As the platform owner, they explicitly reserve the right to do this - see also Meta, Google, Amazon, etc.

Apple collects data, but they usually keep it for their own use, that's the difference.

Third parties trying to do the same level of collection and also share it with partners is the issue. As such, the platform owner putting constraints on them by applying rules related to privacy shouldn't surprise anyone.

If it does, you're not paying enough attention.

Re: Italian Competition Authority Fines Apple $115M for Abusing Dominant Position

#139

Post by victorbjorklund »

dmitrygr wrote: post #129
earthnail wrote: post #37

Surprised by the negative comments here. Usually HN univocally complains about Apple‘s dominant App Store. Now a government fines them for it and some people are upset?

probably due to this: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/linasbeliunas_insane-the-eu-n... EU now makes more money fining US tech than it does taxing its own public internet companies

That is a false post. That is not all public tech companies from the EU.

Re: Italian Competition Authority Fines Apple $115M for Abusing Dominant Position

#140

Post by dns_snek »

dmitrygr wrote: post #129
earthnail wrote: post #37

Surprised by the negative comments here. Usually HN univocally complains about Apple‘s dominant App Store. Now a government fines them for it and some people are upset?

probably due to this: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/linasbeliunas_insane-the-eu-n... EU now makes more money fining US tech than it does taxing its own public internet companies

Why is the narrative "the EU is bad for fining criminals" and not "US big tech companies need to lay off the crime"?
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