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FPGAs Need a New Future

allaboutcircuits.com

131–140 of 170 posts

Re: FPGAs Need a New Future

#131
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of the Gowin documentation is available on their site with a free, approval-less email login The problem is trust. I'm hesitant to hand out my e-mail anywhere because far too often I have been hounded by salespeople as a result, not to mention data breaches or bombardment of newsletters.

So just use Google to obtain the documentation? Or a fake email? The PDFs are pretty easily obtainable by title: https://www.google.com/search?q=gowin+user+guide+filetype%3A... https://www.google.com/search?q=gowin+primitives+filetype%3A... https://www.google.com/search?q=gowin+gw1n+filetype%3Apdf

If I really need something I'll go that route, yes. But for something that is just on a "cool, that might be interesting" it's too much effort.

Re: FPGAs Need a New Future

#133

It seems to me that there are exactly 3 buyers for FPGAs: Government contractors (who spend millions all at once), retro gamers (small market), and electronics hobbyists (another small market). It's no wonder every company has orientated itself towards the first one. I look to China to accidentally make chips that are an order of magnitude better "just because they can".

You forget network infrastructure, high frequency trading, ASIC prototyping and emulation. These are not hobbyist or government markets

Re: FPGAs Need a New Future

#134
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for your endeavor, but didn't see a device support list on your front page. Clicked the first of 2 links in your sidebar (docs) and got a 404. I'm not saying it's telling that your issues page works when your docs page doesn't, but it's not the foot I would have put forward.

Ha yeah, I agree the website isn't great. I set it up a while ago just so we have something to fill up the void. Right now it's just me and a professor of previously mentioned course who are actively involved in the project, so we've been mostly focused on the technical part. That said, functionally speaking the extension is 90% of the way there. Synthesis, PnR, simulation, visualization and more all work for ECP5 &…

> it's just me and a professor of previously mentioned course who are actively involved in the project

Unfortunately, past experiences I have are that a very small academic team = stay away, project will have too many rough edges.

I hope your experience goes better. Tip: A revenue stream gives you something to work with. Failing that, carefully document your whole architecture so contributors will be willing to help.

## Irrelevant Complaining

Just ran across this last year: good looking software, great concept, first half of features work great … enough to hook me, so when I finally found out the other half was bug ridden I stuck it out but ouch. Needless to say, no design document so even fixing stuff was a pain point.

Re: FPGAs Need a New Future

#135
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VHDL is ok, Verilog is a sin. The issue isn't the languages, it's the horrible tooling around them. I'm not going to install a multi GB proprietary IDE that needs a GUI for everything and doesn't operate with any of my existing tools. An IDE that costs money, even though I already bought the hardware. Or requires an NDA. F** that. I want to be able to do `cargo add risc-v` if I need a small cpu IP, and not sacrifice…

Or you could do the right thing, ignore the GUI for 99% of what you’re doing, and treat the FPGA tools as command line tools that are invoked by running “make”…

Any good guides you'd recommend to get started? Also does this workflow work with the cheap Chinese FPGAs available on aliexpress (tang nano, etc)? I always wanted to try out FPGAs again and I prefer to work from command line when possible.

Re: FPGAs Need a New Future

#136
The whole place-and-route thing is completely wrong for using FPGAs as accelerators. We don't need an optimal layout, we need a tiled layout (like the GPU does). All that we need for this to happen is for the companies making the FPGAs to open up the board layout file spec. They don't need to even make/ship any software at all. Just ship the dang file that says where the resources & timings are and some instructions on how to toggle the LUT config.

My feeling is that hardware companies do better when they ship the software needed to utilize their hardware for free. (You need a little margin in the hardware price to cover the software development). However, the FPGA companies haven't figured this out. They try to make way too much software and charge exhorbitant fees for it, somehow thinking that their hardware is useless without that. In fact, their hardware is useless because I can't put anything on it without a 1-to-20 hour compile time. That makes it impossible to use it as an accelerator. I can compile OpenCL for my GPU in a few milliseconds; that's what we need for the FPGA. Even thirty seconds would be easily tolerable -- there's many a game that still requires 15 seconds to load a level and compile its shaders.

FPGAs could be much more useful than they are at present. They've artificially limited themselves to ASIC prototyping alone.

So Intel bought an FPGA company -- nobody knows why. AMD got scared and did the same thing with no clue what to do with it. They've both let them rot. Intel did start incorporating it into its compiler targets, but it was only half-baked. Now they've wisely divested themselves of the company, but it should have never happened. They should have just focused on selling the hardware at a small margin whilst opening up the data to use it.

Re: FPGAs Need a New Future

#137

The whole place-and-route thing is completely wrong for using FPGAs as accelerators. We don't need an optimal layout, we need a tiled layout (like the GPU does). All that we need for this to happen is for the companies making the FPGAs to open up the board layout file spec. They don't need to even make/ship any software at all. Just ship the dang file that says where the resources & timings are and some instructions…

[dead]

Re: FPGAs Need a New Future

#138

One big issue with FPGAs is how annoying it is to learn how to use them. I did a course on embedded systems a few years ago and nobody could truly get to enjoy it because we spent most of our time downloading and installing huge toolchains, waiting for synthesis and PnR to complete and debugging weird IDE issues. We need to open up the space to allow people to develop better solutions than what these companies are fo…

This is exactly it.

The FPGA situation is the same as the microcontroller situation before Arduino blew open the flood gates: byzantine proprietary software and libraries you have to pay for to unlock hard IP functionality less you from scratch develop it yourself which can be very difficult. The Arduino gave people a solid kit: Simple to install IDE that wraps up a text editor, tool chain and libraries with matching plug and play hardware.

Arduino took microcontrollers from esoteric hardware for EE's to mainstream "makers" - people who were not technically educated but wanted to makes things using technology. FPGA's need a solid foundation like that.

I briefly worked with FPGAs and was having a lot of fun but the software really ruined it for me. I forget the details but I was moving my web license of the Xilinx tools to my desktop from my laptop, it kept failing and I gave up.

Re: FPGAs Need a New Future

#139
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> software developers generally aren't very good at doing things in parallel If only hardware people would stop stereotyping. Also, do you guys not use use formal tools (BMC etc) now? Who do you think wrote those tools? Heck all the EDA stuff was designed by software people. I just can't with the gatekeeping. (Btw, this frustration isn't just pointed at you. I find this sentiment being parroted allover /r/FPGA on red…

And their cited example was students. I think students would struggle at something new until they 'get it'. Would a software developer who does FPGA development professionally struggle more than, say, a hardware engineer?

[deleted]

Re: FPGAs Need a New Future

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha yeah, I agree the website isn't great. I set it up a while ago just so we have something to fill up the void. Right now it's just me and a professor of previously mentioned course who are actively involved in the project, so we've been mostly focused on the technical part. That said, functionally speaking the extension is 90% of the way there. Synthesis, PnR, simulation, visualization and more all work for ECP5 &…

> it's just me and a professor of previously mentioned course who are actively involved in the project Unfortunately, past experiences I have are that a very small academic team = stay away, project will have too many rough edges. I hope your experience goes better. Tip: A revenue stream gives you something to work with. Failing that, carefully document your whole architecture so contributors will be willing to help.…

I know exactly what you mean and I share your frustrations with academic software. In our case I think it helps that our main goal is to provide a good user experience: we're not reinventing toolchains from scratch, but rather making existing ones available in a user-friendly way. Especially in the past year or so I've spent a lot of effort on reducing tech debt, modernizing the underlying architecture and squashing bugs. We've gone through several UI iterations just to see what would be most intuitive. Compare that to most pieces of academic software that should technically work, but are so difficult to use that nobody except the developers really know how to utilize it.

Our intention has never been to build a full alternative to e.g. Quartus Prime or Vivado that suits everyone's needs. Our main intention is to show people that FPGA toolchains don't have to be so difficult to get started with, and that alternatives are possible. And yes, I agree, that absolutely means good documentation on several levels to allow other people to continue working on the project. Good thing that's part of our mission, so it will be done; just takes a little bit of time ;)

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