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Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

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Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#131

Post by mahyarm »

noarchy wrote: post #94
w1ntermute wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to two major economic freedom indices[0][1], the US is ranked 18th and 10th, respectively, worldwide. So no, I wouldn't say that the US is the "most libertarian country in the world". 0: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

Canadian here. My country is listed higher than the US in both lists, but I have to laugh out loud at that. Canada is swimming in protectionist laws that choke off competition in some vital sectors, like telecom. Even Amazon got crap for wanting to open warehouses here, because it was considered too "threatening" (as in, people might shop there) to the protected, Canadian companies. Canadians routinely cross the bord…

Candadian who moved america: America just has it's own special brand of protectionist crap. Americans often buy their medication from Canada due to all the crony capitalism that the USA has encountered with their health care system. Don't get started on the whole corn subsidy SNAFU.

Also the USA has cheaper shopping compared to most of the world. Few places are cheaper, especially for goods that are not food, clothing or similar.

Canada is primarily a resource economy. Minerals, oil & banks take up a majority of of the TSX's value. Symptoms of Dutch Disease are prevalent inside canada itself.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#132

Post by beagle3 »

driverdan wrote: post #126
revelation wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a common experience for me (Germany here). There is no guaranteed vacation (full on neoliberalism), few barriers to firing people (dito), but theres also minimum wage, something that is completely foreign to most right and middle-leaning parties here. So the evidence seems to suggest that the whole libertarian and socialism debate is nothing but political banter, with little ideological foundation.

The free market works for jobs too when you let it. If company A offers a job with no vacation and company B offers 4 weeks a year the employee will choose company B. If neither offers vacation you can choose to find another company / industry or start your own. Job protection laws protect and promote mediocrity.

It does in an employee market. If it's an employer market (which it is during economic downturns), then company A will offer your a job with no vacation, and company B will offer you a job with no vacation AND no overtime payment. And there are no other companies, and most people can't start their own.

A free market is an inherently unstable equilibrium. If you don't put protection in place to make it stable, it will quickly stop being free.

Of course, if you put too much protection, you get other unwanted effects, like promoting mediocrity. Extremes, either way, are bad.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#133

Post by astral303 »

EliAndrewC wrote: post #106
cs702 wrote: post #3

Anyone who's ever bought a car knows firsthand how unpleasant it is to deal with traditional car dealers. The price of every vehicle is fully negotiable but the negotiating room is opaque.[1] Key car features and options are bundled in arbitrary packages and priced in ways that make pricing even more opaque. Car salesmen (they're typically men) almost always have a fake smile on their face and come across as smooth-t…

Completely agree - even when the salesmen behave exactly as you'd want them to, it's still a stressful experience because of the price opacity. When my wife and I bought our current car, we researched the average price for that year/model and resolved not to pay more than that, even though the price we were quoted was much higher. So we went to the dealer and noticed that the price on the sticker was LOWER than the p…

Future tip: there's a fair amount of price transparency out there, if you search for invoice pricing. Sites like Edmunds provide invoice pricing for the entire car, as well as the MSRP.

Most high volume dealers will sell you cars at or 1% above invoice. This way you can walk in to the dealer informed and know the approximate range.

Dealers don't like this. Some only negotiate as "$ or % off MSRP" and absolutely refuse to compare to invoice. It doesn't matter, since you know what the invoice is.

Finally, demanding not to pay for an accessory that's on the car that you don't care about is a losing proposition. Most of these accessories are factory- or port-installed and are factored in the sticker printout that's with the car. The dealer was charged by the manufacturer for that accessory and has to pay its cost. You are better off finding another car with less stuff on it, or ordering a car (which usually is a painful process, unless you're buying a Mini).

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#134

Post by damoncali »

beagle3 wrote: post #130
damoncali wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore? You are free in Singapore to the degree that their benevolent dictatorship wishes you to be.

That's basically true everywhere. Except that in Singapore, it is explicit. Are you free to fill your gas tank in New Jersey (hint: no). Are you free as an american taxpayer to bank outside the US? (hint: no). Are you free to sell cars in the US? (hint: no) Are you free to get medical diagnostics of your choice in New York state (paying the market price, of course)? (hint: no) Are you free to live in California, yet…

Except Singapore rigs its elections.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#135

Post by noarchy »

mahyarm wrote: post #131
noarchy wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadian here. My country is listed higher than the US in both lists, but I have to laugh out loud at that. Canada is swimming in protectionist laws that choke off competition in some vital sectors, like telecom. Even Amazon got crap for wanting to open warehouses here, because it was considered too "threatening" (as in, people might shop there) to the protected, Canadian companies. Canadians routinely cross the bord…

Candadian who moved america: America just has it's own special brand of protectionist crap. Americans often buy their medication from Canada due to all the crony capitalism that the USA has encountered with their health care system. Don't get started on the whole corn subsidy SNAFU. Also the USA has cheaper shopping compared to most of the world. Few places are cheaper, especially for goods that are not food, clothin…

I'm particularly amused when American regulators try to claim that one should not purchase drugs from Canada, because their safety can't be verified. Really.

Every rich nation has a complex web of mercantilist measures in place, for sure.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#136

Post by beagle3 »

damoncali wrote: post #134
beagle3 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's basically true everywhere. Except that in Singapore, it is explicit. Are you free to fill your gas tank in New Jersey (hint: no). Are you free as an american taxpayer to bank outside the US? (hint: no). Are you free to sell cars in the US? (hint: no) Are you free to get medical diagnostics of your choice in New York state (paying the market price, of course)? (hint: no) Are you free to live in California, yet…

Except Singapore rigs its elections.

The US has simulated freedom with the two party systems. I don't know whether elections are rigged in the US or Singapore; but to assume that US elections is fraud free is a bit naive (see recent voter registration scandals for the prelude; and follow BlackBoxVoting for the details that humans can't directly follow). If you assume the fraud magnitude is trivial, or that it cancels out, you better have a good explanation for it.

If you think you are better off, you are sorely mistaken. You're not worse off either. It's just all the same.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#137

Post by beagle3 »

marcomonteiro wrote: post #128

As an American, this disturbs me to no end. There are laws on the books to prevent a manufacturer from selling their own product directly to consumers? And what of the benefit? To protect a certain class of sales people. I'm a licensed real estate agent (non-practicing) and I can understand the need for government regulation to protect consumers from ignorant and unscrupulous sales people but in no way is a home buil…

> As an American, this disturbs me to no end. . . > Am I missing something?

The fact that this surprises you means you've probably missed the hundreds of other such laws that are on the books, and for which you are paying daily (and dearly) without even realizing.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#138

Post by rprasad »

ImprovedSilence wrote: post #47
jwr wrote: post #20

Today I found out that USA (arguably the most libertarian country on earth, as far as business is concerned) has strict laws governing the sale of vehicles, said laws actually preventing companies from selling vehicles. I find that quite amazing.

I know right? I have a couple college friends working for GM. They get some awesome employee discount, and can flip it and buy a new car every 6mo or year or so. But they still have to go through dealers to buy their car. It's crazy. They can see their car in the GM lot, as it's being built, but they have to wait until it's shipped to a dealer, pay through a dealer, pick out their options through a dealer and submit…

Part of the GM dealer franchise agreement prohibits GM from competing against its dealer franchises, i.e., by selling directly to customers straight from the factory.

It's not a law, it's simply a contractual provision that the dealers negotiated to protect their investments.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#139

Post by rprasad »

jakubp wrote: post #6

I'm confused. Is this article saying that in the US it's illegal for a maker of the product to sell the product to whomever he wants? How is that helping anyone but the dealerships?

No, it's not. It's saying that in certain states the definition of a car dealership precludes Tesla's current sales facilities (i.e., mall storefronts) from finalizing sales.

Tesla can still maintain these storefronts, and still negotiate and reach an agreement in principle in these storefronts. It simply can't finalize (i.e., sign the contract) in these storefronts. The reasons for this vary from state to state, so I won't even bother try to explain the justifications.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#140

Post by woobar »

btilly wrote: post #66
talmand wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be a rather unpleasant experience, plus it makes me feel bad to immediately hate the person before I get to know his/her style of selling. I know it's unfair but when that salesperson walks up I'm immediately "just go away and leave me alone". Plus the sad fact is that the salesperson is the middleman of the manager, who is the middleman of the financier, who is the middleman of the dealership. There are proba…

Why can't cars be sold just like any other product? If you want to walk in, look at a sticker, and walk out with your new car, you should visit a Saturn dealership. Unless they changed it recently, they never haggle.

What's stoppping you from walking into ANY dealership, paying sticker price and driving off in a new car?
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