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Delivery robots take over Chicago sidewalks

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Re: Delivery robots take over Chicago sidewalks

#131

Post by hombre_fatal »

boh wrote: post #21
crooked-v wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently there's been a lot of anger in San Francisco about a Waymo (which have an excellent safety record with humans) killing an outdoor cat who that walked under the car and sat in front of a tire, when not long after someone was killed by a person backing into a crosswalk and it was a barely a blip on the radar.

The person who killed the bystander has social/legal/financial ramifications. Google had zero. Anyone ever ask themselves why they have a knee-jerk impulse to support a billion dollar company's attempt at centralizing transportation?I'm sorry but safety and making your life easier isn't Silicon Valley's main concern.

Waymos need to be cheap and convenient to get business (they are a service), and they need to be safer to avoid litigation and social/political problems. Their business interests are aligned with both.

So why can't we prefer robot vehicles on the basis of safety and convenience?

If you want to make it about centralization, needing to pay big money for a personal vehicle (most of which through centralized dealers), register it with the state and an insurance company, requiring a government license, paying for insurance/registration in perpetuity, having to park it in special parking zones -- that's as centralized and locked down as it gets.

Re: Delivery robots take over Chicago sidewalks

#132

Post by foobarian »

floxy wrote: post #83
itsdesmond wrote: post #15

I live in a Chicago neighborhood where these are in use. They have very bright lights, actually blinding you as you approach one at night. They move much faster than is appropriate on a sidewalk. They position themselves in the middle of the sidewalk as opposed to the right hand side, impacting traffic in both directions. They round corners at intersections at below-eye-level, I’ve walked into more than one when they…

How far out are we from bi-pedal delivery robots? It wouldn't need to have AGI, just enough senses to keep from falling over, avoiding pedestrians and traversing minor obstacles. Or maybe a quadruped Boston Dyanmics robot?

The big appeal of humanoid robots to me is that they don't need to be automated; even if they were teleoperated there is a lot of new capability. Operators could rotate in and out more easily in shifts, they could operate where a human would be inappropriate (i.e. imagine a robot maid application where the robot could be activated 24/7, whereas something like a housecleaning service is only able to visit infrequently and during specific times. Or, with the delivery application the operator would be a lot safer than the robot navigating traffic and terrain.).

Re: Delivery robots take over Chicago sidewalks

#133

Post by MereInterest »

whyenot wrote: post #68
crote wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine how much better for the environment it'd be if your delivery was brought to you via a human-powered bicycle. Or as an in-between: e-bikes and e-mopeds. Using 2,000lb vehicles for last-mile burrito delivery is a "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" scenario. Delivery robots are an improvement because literally anything is.

Why are you assuming that a human would be more efficient and better for the environment than an electrically powered robot? It is very inefficient (approx 25%) to use food as an energy source, and humans are always burning energy. They can't turn off at night or when they are idle. I think it is very likely that the robot would be better for the environment than the person.

> Why are you assuming that a human would be more efficient and better for the environment than an electrically powered robot?

Because bicycles use 5x less energy per mile than electric scooters, which would be a reasonable analogue for slow electric delivery robots [0].

> It is very inefficient (approx 25%) to use food as an energy source,

By comparison, fossil fuel conversions are about 30-45%, depending on the energy source [1].

> and humans are always burning energy. They can't turn off at night or when they are idle. I think it is very likely that the robot would be better for the environment than the person.

That's a really, really weird baseline to use. Turning off a robot when not performing a task is standard procedure. Turning off a human when not performing a task is not standard procedure, and is frowned upon in polite society.

[0] https://www.statista.com/chart/28710/energy-efficiency-of-mo...

[1] https://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_01.html (Smaller numbers are better. To find efficiency, divide 3412 (1 kilowatt*hour in Btu) by the value in the column [2].)

[2] https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=107&t=3

Re: Delivery robots take over Chicago sidewalks

#134

Post by marcosdumay »

exasperaited wrote: post #82
whimsicalism wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree they definitely create a ton of new problems that we will need to figure out, but I think I am simply much much more sympathetic to the fewer drivers argument to the point that I feel like it is still worth doing and figuring out how to fix the details.

Well, if there are fewer drivers then there is room for them on the road isn’t there? Fewer drivers on the road because the pavements are becoming non-navigable because of robots nearly as wide as pavements does not sound like a benefit for anyone but drivers, and yet again demonstrates how messed up car culture is.

Well, yes, I imagine any fix for large-ish robots moving around cities has to put them on the roads. At least for most of the time.

Re: Delivery robots take over Chicago sidewalks

#135

Post by egypturnash »

derektank wrote: post #44
alistairSH wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the more reason to build separate infrastructure for bicycles and other “in-between” vehicles.

Yeah, depending on the speed of these vehicles, it seems like bike lanes are the appropriate place for them. A smart city could even offer companies an opportunity to fund the buildout of additional bike lanes if there aren’t any existing in the neighborhood in question

A slow-ass cooler-sized wheely boy filling up the entire bike lane and stopping randomly, that'll be super safe for cyclists, yep. On the bright side maybe some of them will get knocked into traffic by people who don't bother looking for bicycles coming up behind them when they open their car door, never mind low-riding bots that are much harder to see.

Re: Delivery robots take over Chicago sidewalks

#136

Post by Fricken »

exasperaited wrote: post #96
Fricken wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't that new. Starship Technologies, founded in 2014, has performed over 9 million deliveries across 270 locations.

That’s… not many at all, really. You could do it in a year with ninety deliveries per day per location (well, 92). Assuming a dozen robots per location, that's less than eight deliveries per day per robot (and even that might be beyond their upper bound, actually, given their speed and range). But then they didn't do it all in one year. So… it doesn't feel like a stretch. Given how many will be recurring customers wi…

Starship is just one company. There are dozens in the west. In China there are hundreds of sidewalk delivery robot start-ups.

We're not talking about all the "Possible unique problems", we're just talking about the really obvious ones that are easy to think up .

Re: Delivery robots take over Chicago sidewalks

#138

Post by SapporoChris »

alistairSH wrote: post #31
ElijahLynn wrote: post #2

Valid points by those concerned with taking over the sidewalks. I will also say, people riding electric scooters shouldn't be zooming along at 20mph (or pedal bikes) on sidewalks either, which are a true safety hazard. And on the other side, much better for our environment, to have a lighter weight robot delivering a burrito than a 2,000lb vehicle, in terms of net energy consumption/expenditure.

All the more reason to build separate infrastructure for bicycles and other “in-between” vehicles.

I look forward to seeing the bot delivery lane.

Re: Delivery robots take over Chicago sidewalks

#139

Post by arjie »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #127
abdullahkhalids wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A slow moving robot on a sidewalk in the worst case makes it inconvenient for pedestrians, and robs the rights of those in wheelchairs etc. A medium speed robot in the bike lane in the worst case causes a fatal or broken-bone accident.

True. I don't think they belong in bike lanes nor pedestrian-only sidewalks. These delivery companies are being subsidized by our already-limited pedestrian infrastructure. Also, no human should have to move out of the way or trip over some someone's burrito delivery robot.

The point of infrastructure is to have a common substrate where members of society can provide services to each other. Sure, in some sense there are subsidies but we have to account for the positive externalities. After all, a tennis court has very low utilization of space so that's a "subsidy for rich guys to talk about crypto". And golf courses likewise.

It's just not a meaningful way to think of infrastructure. The point of infrastructure is that it benefits society, and it will benefit some people more than others. Nice sidewalks benefit the rich people who live there more than they do the poor people who have to drive from the suburbs to work there.

And this business about "have to move out of the way" is really a bit much. If they're impeding the disabled then that's of some significance, and ensuring that those who need wheelchair access can still get places is worth it, but any able-bodied person can easily step aside.

I find the online reaction to so much of this stuff hard to fathom. Occasionally, I'll walk by a Lime / Bird scooter that's fallen over and I just pick it up and place it on the side. The net gain to society of having easy-to-access last-mile transportation is probably much greater than this happening occasionally. I really think these things are far overblown. But if you go online, you'd think that sidewalks are completely unwalkable. I principally walk and bike (now e-bike) places and this has never been a problem either in San Francisco or London - both cities where a large contingent has constantly insisted that it is.

Re: Delivery robots take over Chicago sidewalks

#140

Post by yieldcrv »

et-al wrote: post #35
yieldcrv wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are solved problems in other cities All anyone has to do is look across the land

Where is this a solved problem? No one likes these things. Seth Rogan reflects the zeitgeist in Platonic .

Los Angeles, including Santa Monica, LA City, West Hollywood others
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