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HTML as an Accessible Format for Papers (2023)

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Re: HTML as an Accessible Format for Papers (2023)

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't function in real use, it's just theoretical.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/Reference/P... Literally part of Mozilla's docs.

That's theory. Can you send me a link to any html file where this actually works? It's a problem I'd love to have solved.

Edit to clarify: The break-after property works with the worthless print dialogues, but doesn't function with "Export to PDF", which is what most people will want to use.

Re: HTML as an Accessible Format for Papers (2023)

#132

For arXiv papers, I prefer HTML format much more than PDF format. Compared to PDF format, HTML format is much more accessible because of browsers. Basically I can reuse my browser extensions to do anything I like without hassle, like translation, note taking, sending texts to LLMs, and so on. For now, arXiv offers two HTML services: the default one in https://arxiv.org/html/xxxx.xxxxx , and the alternative one in htt…

Serious question: do websites from the 90s work well in modern browsers? Because PDFs from that time view fine.

Re: HTML as an Accessible Format for Papers (2023)

#133
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay then, what would stop you rendering TeX to SVG and embedding that? Edit: Genuine question, not rhetorical - I don't know how well it would work but it sounds like it should.

That would (mostly if not always) work in the sense of reproducing the layout of the pages, but would defeat the purpose of preserving the semantic information present in the TeX file (what is a heading, a reference and to what, a specific math environment, etc.) which is AFAIK already mostly dropped on conversion to PDF by the latex compiler.

Couldn't you write a TeX renderer that emitted HTML (or RST, or Markdown, or whatever) with SVG for the equations?

Re: HTML as an Accessible Format for Papers (2023)

#134
post #95

Hi, an arXiv HTML Papers developer here. As a very brief update - we are pending a larger update. You will spot many (many) issues with our current coverage and fidelity of the paper rendering. When they jump at you, please report them to us. All reports from the last 2 years have landed on github. We have made a bit of progress since, but there are (a lot of) more low-hanging fruit to pick. Project issues: https://g…

I would like to write code for latexml to translate a package but I found the documentation to be hard to understand. That might be what is holding developers back. I looked at this a year ago and gave up.

Tell us what you would need described in a tutorial to be productive, as well as your background with the technologies involved (TeX/LaTeX, perl, XML, XSLT, HTML). Probably best as a new issue:

https://github.com/brucemiller/LaTeXML/issues

It's a pretty deep rabbit hole, but I wholeheartedly agree most standard package support incantations should be easy and few to use.

Re: HTML as an Accessible Format for Papers (2023)

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you fully read my comment? Please point me to where HTML/CSS provide the features I listed. It doesn't really matter if HTML/CSS is more powerful at a hundred other layout things, if it doesn't provide the absolute necessary features for papers.

Citations in various formats, > https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Reference/... > https://codepen.io/tag/citation footnotes > https://codepen.io/SitePoint/pen/QbMgvY references to automatically numbered figures and tables > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/25869906/table-auto-numb... \ > https://codepen.io/MikeKelley/pen/GpXmEd

I don't think you understand.

Citations need to generate reference lists. Footnotes require automatic placement at the bottom of each page. Your examples of numbered tables are numbering the rows, not the tables. And figure numbers need to be referenced in the text.

None of what you're pointing to does what academic papers need. Why are you trying to push this agenda?

Re: HTML as an Accessible Format for Papers (2023)

#136

For arXiv papers, I prefer HTML format much more than PDF format. Compared to PDF format, HTML format is much more accessible because of browsers. Basically I can reuse my browser extensions to do anything I like without hassle, like translation, note taking, sending texts to LLMs, and so on. For now, arXiv offers two HTML services: the default one in https://arxiv.org/html/xxxx.xxxxx , and the alternative one in htt…

Serious question: do websites from the 90s work well in modern browsers? Because PDFs from that time view fine.

Aside from sites that used non-standard stuff like ActiveX or Java applets, the general answer is "yes".

And to respond to your implied criticism: the stability/reliability/fidelity of PDFs is a myth. It would be hard to say how many dozens of PDFs I've come across in the last two years that don't look the same across devices/viewers (or sometimes just fail to render in their entirety). This played a significant part in a cascade of errors in one incident I know of that resulted in the payout of a claim more than $1,000 but less than $10,000—not to mention a lot of strife and anger for the persons involved over the course of multiple months before resolution.

(As I write this now, I realize I'd almost forgotten about the fact that almost every time I've taken something to FedEx or UPS to be printed at a self-service kiosk, the result has been unusable, so I've had to take it to the clerk to have them print it instead.)

HTML at least has the property that it's still trivial to access and extract the data if you run into either malformed inputs or ones that are valid but incompatible/unsupported by whatever viewer (browser) you happen to be using, which is a lot more than you can say for more opaque formats like Java, PDF, and Flash.

Re: HTML as an Accessible Format for Papers (2023)

#137

The biggest issue with papers for me today is that they don't allow videos as anything other than supplemental materials to be downloaded, or linking to a web-page that has them. I want to embed gif's or videos in my papers directly!

Here in the Muggle world, there's no material I know of that can be used to produce a type of paper that supports moving images.

Re: HTML as an Accessible Format for Papers (2023)

#138
post #77
post #67

Wasn't the World Wide Web invented at CERN specifically for sharing scientific papers? Why are we still using PDFs at all?

No, it wasn't. Scientists at CERN used DVI and later PDF like everyone else. HTML has no provisions for typesetting equations and is therefore not suitable for physics papers (without much newer hacks such as MathML).

MathML isn't new. It predates Windows 98 and the birth of a substantial part of HN's userbase.

Re: HTML as an Accessible Format for Papers (2023)

#139
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would (mostly if not always) work in the sense of reproducing the layout of the pages, but would defeat the purpose of preserving the semantic information present in the TeX file (what is a heading, a reference and to what, a specific math environment, etc.) which is AFAIK already mostly dropped on conversion to PDF by the latex compiler.

Couldn't you write a TeX renderer that emitted HTML (or RST, or Markdown, or whatever) with SVG for the equations?

I think this project is based on LaTeXML (https://math.nist.gov/~BMiller/LaTeXML/) which is exactly that (except for the SVG part)

Re: HTML as an Accessible Format for Papers (2023)

#140
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hope for semantic HTML died the day they said "stop using , use ", regardless of what the actual purpose of the italics was (it's usually not emphasis).

Who said that? The semantics are different. The HTML element represents a range of text that is set off from the normal text for some reason, such as idiomatic text, technical terms, taxonomical designations, among others. Historically, these have been presented using italicized type, which is the original source of the naming of this element. The element is for words that have a stressed emphasis compared to surroun…

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