Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Two recently found works of J.S. Bach presented in Leipzig [video]

youtube.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 150 posts

Re: Two recently found works of J.S. Bach presented in Leipzig [video]

#131

Post by lo_zamoyski »

1718627440 wrote: post #110
inglor_cz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jan Dismas Zelenka wrote for the Saxon king, and many of his works were never released as a result. Then, they burnt to ashes in 1945. The only extant copies were caught in the bombing of Dresden. We tend to think of "lost works" as something that happened in Antiquity. Nope.

I think this is the real long-term harm the Nazis have done. Sure killing and murdering people is very bad, but after a century it amounts all to the same. What you can't bring back is the whole culture they destroyed. This is also one aspect why they absolutely hated the Jews. The Jewish culture emphasizes education and Christian were forbidden to take interests in the middle ages. So the Jews became the wealthy edu…

> The Jewish culture emphasizes education and Christian were forbidden to take interests in the middle ages. So the Jews became the wealthy educated elite.

"Take interests"? If by that you mean in education, then this is false.

If you look at the centers of learning in the Middle Ages and who was contributing the most, these were Christians and it was the Church. The first universities-as-universities were founded then. Scholasticism was intellectually very rigorous and supplied the philosophical foundations for the modern sciences. This was an incredible period.

And not all Jews were rich, either. This is an exaggeration. Those who were were often disproportionately merchants, of course, and because Jews were permitted to issue loans with interest to non-Jews (the Church forbade Catholics from issuing loans with compound interest to anyone, hence why the Medicis, Fuggers, etc. didn't make their fortunes through interest), they were more likely to engage in money lending of that kind.

Re: Two recently found works of J.S. Bach presented in Leipzig [video]

#132

Post by lodovic »

prybeng wrote: post #127
jawilson2 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something I have always been interested about, but sort of afraid to ask because it is a VERY small jump to unintended racism... Are there any composers from other cultures that come close to doing what Bach (and Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky, etc) did? Like, I want to hear the Japanese equivalent of the Brandenburg Concertos or Mass in B Minor, all guns blazing. Don't tell me "well, it's the space between the notes…

I would maybe look at this a bit differently. Where are the great classical artists in even the rest of Europe? The great classical composers of the 18th century were all German and all made their careers in Vienna, Austria in the 1700s. This was where you wanted to be. Its like the musical equivalent of silicon valley in the 2000s. Vienna was among the wealthiest cities in the world. Habsburg nobility had an unusual…

Your argument is ignoring musical geniuses such as Vivaldi, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, none of them came from Vienna or Germany.

Re: Two recently found works of J.S. Bach presented in Leipzig [video]

#133

Post by d-lisp »

leephillips wrote: post #130
d-lisp wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What pieces do you know ? I mostly listen violin/lute partitas (I sometimes prefer them transcribed to classical guitars (I really enjoy Vidovic and Bream renditions)). I do really like the simplicity of such pieces, which I find to be very lyrical, of course in a far different manner than e.g. Vivaldi... The chaconne from the 2nd partita in D minor [BWV 1004] I find very powerful; very different from the Brandburg C…

That chaconne is one of my favorite pieces of all time. I heard it first on guitar, played by Segovia, and, probably because of that, still prefer it on guitar to the original violin. I even used to play it, pretty decently, I think.

I also play the Segovia transcript more than the urtext version (some would argue that this is kitch or innapropriate, but yeah ... why would I care ?)

Well, you surely also are a Sonata No.1 [BWV 1001] enjoyer, aren't you ? I find the four movement to be exceptionnally good, and they cover a lot of ground.

Re: Two recently found works of J.S. Bach presented in Leipzig [video]

#134

Post by d-lisp »

throaway123213 wrote: post #121
prmph wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree; I find many of Bach’s compositions to be devoid of heart, just intellectual in some mathematical way. Now don’t get me wrong, I do enjoy many of his compositions for what they are. The thing about music and many other arts is that it is a fools errand to attempt to give them a total ordering; there are things to enjoy about wildly differing styles of music that I think people do a disservice to themselves…

Actually it's a myth that classical music wasn't meant to be danced to. There was much dancing going on.

In case of Bach, we know at least that the "dance" suite weren't meant for "social dancing" due to the fact they are highly stylized.

Re: Two recently found works of J.S. Bach presented in Leipzig [video]

#135

Post by 1718627440 »

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #131
1718627440 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the real long-term harm the Nazis have done. Sure killing and murdering people is very bad, but after a century it amounts all to the same. What you can't bring back is the whole culture they destroyed. This is also one aspect why they absolutely hated the Jews. The Jewish culture emphasizes education and Christian were forbidden to take interests in the middle ages. So the Jews became the wealthy edu…

> The Jewish culture emphasizes education and Christian were forbidden to take interests in the middle ages. So the Jews became the wealthy educated elite. "Take interests"? If by that you mean in education, then this is false. If you look at the centers of learning in the Middle Ages and who was contributing the most, these were Christians and it was the Church. The first universities-as-universities were founded th…

> "Take interests"? If by that you mean in education, then this is false.

No.

> because Jews were permitted to issue loans with interest to non-Jews

Exactly, what I was saying, so you did get it.

> And not all Jews were rich, either. This is an exaggeration.

I did not say that. What I stated was that the rich educated were disproportionally (secular) Jews.

Re: Two recently found works of J.S. Bach presented in Leipzig [video]

#136

Post by hearsathought »

tgv wrote: post #21
hearsathought wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bach is the greatest composer and perhaps the greatest artist in human history. Full stop. He's aight. Obviously you enjoy his music and that's fine. But have you experienced all the art from all cultures through all human history to make such authorative statements on such subjective matters?

This is a riposte at the level of "Then name all composers. Nanananana." Obviously, the answer to your question is going to be "no," but really a great amount of music is available to us, and everything that came before the Renaissance was, crudely put, simple music. So the commenter can be considered to be able to weigh Bach's merits against those of other artists'. IMO too, Bach is the greatest. There's really no-o…

> This is a riposte at the level of "Then name all composers. Nanananana."

It isn't. It's pointing out silly fanboying of silly people.

> and everything that came before the Renaissance was, crudely put, simple music.

Does "simple" mean worse? Using your logic, then eminem or taylor swift are greater musicians than bach. After all, pre-digital era, music was, crudely put, simple music. But then again, there are dunces who think lord of the rings or harry potter are greater works than the bible, iliad, aeneid, hamlet, etc.

> So the commenter can be considered to be able to weigh Bach's merits against those of other artists'.

The commenter was not only weighing bach's merits against his contemporary musicians, he was weighing them against all ARTISTS - musicians, poets, dramatists, writers, etc. The commenter claimed bach was the greatest artists. full stop.

Re: Two recently found works of J.S. Bach presented in Leipzig [video]

#137

Post by hearsathought »

lordleft wrote: post #23
hearsathought wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bach is the greatest composer and perhaps the greatest artist in human history. Full stop. He's aight. Obviously you enjoy his music and that's fine. But have you experienced all the art from all cultures through all human history to make such authorative statements on such subjective matters?

I understand that a comment such as mine would rankle. I acknowledge that art is subjective, that there's no accounting for taste, etc. And yet, I don't really believe that, deep down. If I did, I'm not entirely sure how I could speak meaningfully to the differences between great and no so great art. Is War and Peace really as good as any other novel? Would it be possible for any two people to meaningfully communicat…

> I understand that a comment such as mine would rankle.

It doesn't rankle. It just makes you look childish and immature.

> If I did, I'm not entirely sure how...

God you bore me. I'm not interested in having a discussion on the philosophy of art here. Just say he's your favorite musician so far and be done with it. Just like whoever was your previous favorite musician before bach.

Re: Two recently found works of J.S. Bach presented in Leipzig [video]

#138

Post by 1718627440 »

hearsathought wrote: post #136
tgv wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a riposte at the level of "Then name all composers. Nanananana." Obviously, the answer to your question is going to be "no," but really a great amount of music is available to us, and everything that came before the Renaissance was, crudely put, simple music. So the commenter can be considered to be able to weigh Bach's merits against those of other artists'. IMO too, Bach is the greatest. There's really no-o…

> This is a riposte at the level of "Then name all composers. Nanananana." It isn't. It's pointing out silly fanboying of silly people. > and everything that came before the Renaissance was, crudely put, simple music. Does "simple" mean worse? Using your logic, then eminem or taylor swift are greater musicians than bach. After all, pre-digital era, music was, crudely put, simple music. But then again, there are dunce…

> Does "simple" mean worse?

Not OP, but I think no.

> Using your logic, then eminem or taylor swift are greater musicians than bach. After all, pre-digital era, music was, crudely put, simple music. But then again, there are dunces who think lord of the rings or harry potter are greater works than the bible, iliad, aeneid, hamlet, etc.

Before Renaissance with the exception of Hungary, where it died out due to the Turks, there was a lack of polyphony. There was also a serious lack in the ability for dynamic. Previously the concept of measure didn't exist. The very composer we are discussing here, also took part in research about the nature of keys and famously invented an intonation equally useful for all keys. There was quite a lot of research and innovation at that time.

> eminem or taylor swift

Modern music is often lacking in complexity compared to older music. It is popular, because to be able to process that complexity in real-time, which is a precursor to understanding and enjoying the music, early child-hood training of the ear is needed by exposure, which a majority of the population wasn't subject to.

Early digital music was innovative, since it was created by geeks educated in both computers and music, but these days are long gone. Modern music is quite simple and more some return to earlier monophonic music with modern instruments.

Re: Two recently found works of J.S. Bach presented in Leipzig [video]

#139

Post by 1718627440 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #119
1718627440 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the real long-term harm the Nazis have done. Sure killing and murdering people is very bad, but after a century it amounts all to the same. What you can't bring back is the whole culture they destroyed. This is also one aspect why they absolutely hated the Jews. The Jewish culture emphasizes education and Christian were forbidden to take interests in the middle ages. So the Jews became the wealthy edu…

The city where I live, Ostrava, had mostly Jewish intelligentsia, as it was otherwise an industrial city with most people working in mines and steel mills. I don't think it ever came back, intellectually, from the Holocaust.

Exactly what I mean.

> I don't think it ever came back, intellectually, from the Holocaust.

I also find that sad, but honestly why would they? There weren't exactly welcomed throughout the history in Europe. While there were phases when they were, the opportunity to have your own state with people just like you certainly sounds convincing. In addition a lot of people simply couldn't, since they were dead or for some deported/"emigrated".

As for my home country, Germany, while we retained the cultures of the rich capital owners, we lost the cultures of the poor philosophers and smart statesmen. I think this is a deep hidden reason, why we suck now-a-days. Another culture, that wasn't as rich for philosophers and state men, but instead for entrepreneurs and competitive societies, didn't lost their landscape, but instead was destroyed by 40 years of socialism.

I think we should stop blaming the social and political landscape on idioticity, but instead recognize it as the successful work of 60 years of dictatorial indoctrination it is.

Re: Two recently found works of J.S. Bach presented in Leipzig [video]

#140

Post by 1718627440 »

prybeng wrote: post #127
jawilson2 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something I have always been interested about, but sort of afraid to ask because it is a VERY small jump to unintended racism... Are there any composers from other cultures that come close to doing what Bach (and Mozart, Beethoven, Stravinsky, etc) did? Like, I want to hear the Japanese equivalent of the Brandenburg Concertos or Mass in B Minor, all guns blazing. Don't tell me "well, it's the space between the notes…

I would maybe look at this a bit differently. Where are the great classical artists in even the rest of Europe? The great classical composers of the 18th century were all German and all made their careers in Vienna, Austria in the 1700s. This was where you wanted to be. Its like the musical equivalent of silicon valley in the 2000s. Vienna was among the wealthiest cities in the world. Habsburg nobility had an unusual…

In addition to the sibling comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46012832, German(y) wasn't a state back than but a much larger common cultural term. People living in different parts of Europe would understand themself to be German, even if they wouldn't be considered to be now by their ancestry. It was simply the cultural lingua franca of Central Europe at that time, the countries were smaller and quite numerous. People used to speak German in the same way as they now speak English.

I think the mobility at that time is underestimated, it was very common to relocate to a place where the innovation happens and the other great minds were. It was more common to tour through Europe as part of the Education, than it is now. Sure a journey would take a week instead of a few hours, but you also don't relocate every day.

Post reply on HN