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A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#131

Post by graemep »

nekusar wrote: post #127
graemep wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you can find a few isolated quotes in a series of documents written over thousands of years that support the idea that religion is the problem. Have you read these works considering historical and cultural context? Can you find anything in the New testament that supports this? Do you know about the history of how Christianity shaped European culture? There are excellent books on the subjects (Dominion by Tom Holl…

I work in IT, but I also do stuff in historical studies. I dont want to dox myself, cause I just want to chat here anonymously. In the Americas and Europe, Christianity is the fundamentalist scourge. We all know of Israel, of fundamentalist Judaism. Middle East? You guessed it, 4 of the 5 major sects of Islam are fundamentalist. And moving further East, we see extreme caste-ism and Fundamentalist Hinduism. China root…

> The priesthood collectively held back science, arts, literature, and countless other things because of "demons, devils, satan"

You mean this priesthood? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_clergy_scient...

> We also see fundamentalist christian hatred flood everywhere with more anti-woman sentiment with Witch Trials held basically everywhere.

Which happened in early modern times.

> Its one thing to say "My religion says I cant do (action)." and a whole different thing to say "My religion says YOU cant do (action)".

I agree. On the other hand secular ideologies are often worse. Look at the history of the 20th century.

> > In the Americas and Europe, Christianity is the fundamentalist scourge.

yes, those horrible Christians. Doing things like abolishing slavery, improving the status of women and demanding marital fidelity from men as well as women. Do you have any idea what pre-Christian Europe was like? The Roman Empire, for example?

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#132

Post by spacechild1 »

lifestyleguru wrote: post #111
spacechild1 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, most of Western, Northern and Central Europe since the 1960s. Notable exceptions are Spain (under Franco) and Ireland (until the 1990s).

Greece and Portugal weren't particularly prosperous or safe either. Italy was only rich-ish, but unsafe.

Greece is in Southern Europe ;-) Italy is a complex case because of the great disparity between the North and the South. You're totally right about Portugal, though!

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#133

Post by tiagod »

wtcactus wrote: post #126
lifestyleguru wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece and Portugal weren't particularly prosperous or safe either. Italy was only rich-ish, but unsafe.

What do you mean Portugal wasn't safe? I wholeheartedly agree it wasn't prosperous, but not being safe? Where did you take that from?

Enormous child mortality, colonial war, persecution by the political police, hunger.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#134

Post by wtcactus »

I'm not going to comment on the words chosen by BBC to portray the case - I think there are a lot of other better entries on HN where BBC bias (or the lack of it) can be discussed.

But I see a lot of comments here about what Fanquismo was and wasn't, and I believe it comes out of ignorance about Spanish history. Many comments here make it look like this was a choice between Franquismo/Fascism and personal freedom and democracy. It wasn't. It was a brutal struggle between Fascists and Communists, and good people that wanted freedom were caught in the middle right since the beginning. The choice wasn't between Fascism or Democracy, the choice was just between two major evils: Fascism or Communism and that's why it divided Spanish society

It can be argued that when this happened (1968), the bloody and brutal Spanish Civil War (that started with major violent acts from the communists' side after fair elections, BTW) was long over and the country should already be way on the path to democracy (and I agree if that was the point being made), but let's not pretend that she joined good company and proper people that just wanted to liberate Spain.

People commenting here really need to read about the Spanish Civil War to understand how it went down. Communists were so destructive that in the middle of the war, they started fighting and killing each other instead of fighting against the Fascist forces. Major atrocities were committed on both sides. POWs were routinely rounded up and executed, both by the Communists and by the Fascists.

The only group that seemed to have some sense when it came to defend basic humanity were the anarchists (although they did have a lot of other issues). Read Homage to Catalonia by George Orwell for a beautiful and sad description of a small part of this conflict.

There's this old 6 episodes TV Series from 1983, that really gives a good perspective of how awful it all was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_I6C-VbFvI

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#135

Post by nekusar »

dang wrote: post #119
nekusar wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might take a karma hit for this, but whatever. Its the truth. Christians are more concerned about *causing* extreme child abuse, and then turning around and claiming its to "save them", so the abuse isnt reallllly abuse. Most of these camps cited are christian. And the people running them? Dogmatic christian fundamentalists. And these are the same types that run "pray the gay away" camps too. And my inflammatory, alb…

> Christians are more concerned about *causing* extreme child abuse > religion itself is the problem Religious flamewar isn't allowed here, so please don't post like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html --- Edit: It also looks like your account has been using HN primarily for ideological/political/religious battle. That's not allowed here (see https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=c…

So we're supposed to simultaneously discuss the article (General Franco's extremist Catholic task forces), but not identify the religious tropes behind this?

I read the article, and discussing the article. And as hackers, im curious as how to fix the problems.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#136

Post by foobarchu »

arp242 wrote: post #97
HiPhish wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A) She was still a child. Please don't call a 17-year old person a child. It's not as if on the night between 17 years, 11 months and 30 days, and 18 years humans undergo some sort of metamorphosis.

Yes I agree, which is probably why we should treat 18-year olds more as children than adults (although obviously they are in-between the two). Brains continue to develop to the age of about 25.

The brain does not fully develop until 25, 18 is simply one of many thresholds where we've decided (in the US) to start officially transitioning children into adulthood. Others include 14-16 (driving), 21 (drinking), and 25 (car rental).

So if 17 can't be called a child, what can? You have to draw the completely arbitrary like somewhere. Do you chose the legal 18 (in the US)? The Hebrew 13? Some other metric?

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#137

Post by scoofy »

lkey wrote: post #129
scoofy wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think she’s guilty of anything. If I had a daughter that was engaging in violent political uprisings as a young teen, I’d try my best to get her help. That’s presumably why her parents sent her to a reform program. My point is the story is disjointed and sad, but there is little cohesive theme aside from pure tragedy, and the narrative presented makes no sense.

You did not read the article, and it shows. You: "help", "That’s >- presumably The article: | [her parents] were so conservative they wouldn't even let Mariona wear trousers. | "For them, it was a scandal, a stain on the family," she says. "After that, they wouldn't let me out." | [after she ran away] They immediately reported her as an underage runaway to the authorities, and the moment Mariona was about to board a…

>Her parents only care about themselves, 50 years ago and today

>>Oh, word? It's dope you know the inner thoughts of everyone involved.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#138

Post by s5300 »

dang wrote: post #119
nekusar wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might take a karma hit for this, but whatever. Its the truth. Christians are more concerned about *causing* extreme child abuse, and then turning around and claiming its to "save them", so the abuse isnt reallllly abuse. Most of these camps cited are christian. And the people running them? Dogmatic christian fundamentalists. And these are the same types that run "pray the gay away" camps too. And my inflammatory, alb…

> Christians are more concerned about *causing* extreme child abuse > religion itself is the problem Religious flamewar isn't allowed here, so please don't post like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html --- Edit: It also looks like your account has been using HN primarily for ideological/political/religious battle. That's not allowed here (see https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=c…

[dead]

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#139

Post by cyost »

AlexandrB wrote: post #90
cyost wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of a system is what it does. You seem to believe that these are adverse, uncommon, and unintended outcomes rather than part of the machinery of the troubled teen industry, the school-to-prison pipeline, poverty, and capitalist/protestant propaganda in general. Involuntary commitment would be a threat and weapon in the current political environment, as in the thread OP where the same was used in Francoist…

You should read: https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/you-call-that-compassio...

I actually have (and a few of his other articles besides).

If we were to involuntarily take someone into society's care, the process must be benign with a good outcome. As things currently are, the exact opposite (or a system so thoroughly financialized as to be almost the same) is present. The capacity to reverse this seems non-existant.

Most calls right now to reinstitute involuntary commitment are the same thought process that results in the societal rot present in how we deal with poverty, homelessness, and addiction; they just want them even further removed from themselves so they don't have to witness it.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#140

Post by Stevvo »

wtcactus wrote: post #134

I'm not going to comment on the words chosen by BBC to portray the case - I think there are a lot of other better entries on HN where BBC bias (or the lack of it) can be discussed. But I see a lot of comments here about what Fanquismo was and wasn't, and I believe it comes out of ignorance about Spanish history. Many comments here make it look like this was a choice between Franquismo/Fascism and personal freedom and…

"that started with major violent acts from the communists' side after fair elections"

This is simply false. The Spanish Civil War started in 1936 with Franco's fascist coup against a democratically elected government. Check your own ignorance before accusing others.

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