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Collaboration sucks

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131–140 of 262 posts

Re: Collaboration sucks

#131
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software devs also all think they're smart and they talk that way and take pride in it. The reality is many software devs are dumb af.

We are by and large hired for cleverness, so there’s a lot of selection that makes that true even if undergrads are not far off from average. It would be better if we were hired for wisdom. Don’t confuse cleverness and foolishness. You can be both. But devs aren’t usually the ones treating their reports like children and then acting surprised when their prophecies become self fulfilling. You can blame Taylor for that…

Developers may be hired for cleverness, but cleverness in code and technical matters does not necessarily carry over into cleverness with respect to office politics or good management.

Re: Collaboration sucks

#132
post #103

I wrote a book about GitHub a while back. I interviewed a bunch of GitHub engineers. One comment was really fascinating: at least some teams required the engineer to write up an empty PR (with zero code) about how they were going to do things before writing any code. The team would need to sign off on that PR before any "work" was done. Can anyone describe that in any way other than collaboration? But, that's really…

> The team would need to sign off on that PR before any "work" was done. Can anyone describe that in any way other than collaboration? That sounds like an ad-hoc planning for a single issue, which you could also just do for a subset of the open issues, every, lets say, 2 weeks. And so we invented SCRUM.

scrum planning doesnt usually get too nitty gritty on implementation details in my experience if you dont want the meeting to last 4 hours.

Re: Collaboration sucks

#133
post #32

I feel like collaboration can work great with a group of exactly two people. It's not terribly hard for two people to partition work and actively help each other. With two people working on a project, both people can realistically understand most of the codebase, and can competently review each other's pull requests. I feel collaboration suffers from combinatorial complexity though, and I feel any number bigger than…

If each person can eat half a pizza, you've reinvented the Amazon approach: https://martinfowler.com/bliki/TwoPizzaTeam.html

Re: Collaboration sucks

#134
post #4

I would argue the opposite. If your collaboration sucks IMHO you haven’t done enough. It’s a skill. Imagine you’re playing a team sport and you recommended people play together less to win more games. Now look up Globetrotters vs Lakers.

Programming isn't a sport.

[deleted]

Re: Collaboration sucks

#135
post #60

My girlfriend enter a new job and she told me about some scenario related to IT, kind of asking for my input. At one point she told the IT guy, who was discussing through emails or chat, that they should hop on a call. I told her that the IT guy probably hated that, but she couldn't understand why. I think speaking to people is a stressor, it's an activity that drains energy, like running or literally doing anything,…

I'm not sure where you work in IT, but if I went weeks without talking to someone, I would be out of a job.

Re: Collaboration sucks

#136
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The four worst words on a software project are: “Why can’t you just…”

Closely followed by “This should be an easy lift”

"Delivering this feature goes against everything I know to be right and true. And I will sooner lay you into this barren earth, than entertain your folly for a moment longer."

-- Krazam, "Microservices", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8OnoxKotPQ

Re: Collaboration sucks

#137
post #4

I would argue the opposite. If your collaboration sucks IMHO you haven’t done enough. It’s a skill. Imagine you’re playing a team sport and you recommended people play together less to win more games. Now look up Globetrotters vs Lakers.

it's funny because the facile sportsball analogy actually fails horribly here. "playing together more" is the absolute last thing that the undifferentiated mass of hundreds of people hitting the like button on a random nonsensical comment need to do more of. the only situation where collaboration of this sort is productive is when you cannot reasonably expect any other participants to have some sort of proprietary knowledge over their domain. think contestants on Survivor trying to put a puzzle together faster than the other team to get an immunity idol, not "i'm gonna mansplain Calculus to Terence Tao".

and man i wish i could go back in time to when i merely thought the "Globetrotters vs Lakers" thing was just a ham-fisted phrasing some sentiment along the lines of "the Lakers are better than the Globetrotters"...

but, unfortunately, i "took one for the team" (read: "collaborated with the team"), and am now dumbstruck as to what could possibly have been meant by this metaphor. for those of you who have yet on this fine day to regret the dual, magical gifts of sight and literacy: apparently the Globetrotters and Lakers played an exhibition match of some sort in 1948. the Globetrotters won 61-59. and it was apparently some sort of watershed moment in America's collective realization that Black people are actually also good at basketball. i wish this was merely my being grouchy, glib, and reductive. but just read the Wikipedia article: that is literally what happened and what it meant. in historical context. that, and nothing more, is the object lesson so signified.

so, now that i have made peace with my dual inabilities to magically unread and unlearn, pray tell: who are the metaphorical Black athletes being discriminated against, metaphorically, in this... metaphor? is the implication that Tammy from HR or Chad the BizDev Bro are better designers than Klaus from the Bauhaus? is it that the Lakers "played together less" than the Globetrotters? surely it can't be that there was a giant societal misapprehension (read: racism) that caused people to systematically misevaluate talent and, as sports experts as you say, pass the wrong people the ball? if only the Lakers had collaborated more, they could have overcome their systematic racism that blinded them to the basketball nous of their fellow man! now that would have made a great sports movie. for 1948. because otherwise it sure seems like it is not only an argument in favor of the most abjectly banal-at-best-and-insidious-at-worst flavor at the Baskin Robbins of collaboration. "French Vanilla" collaboration, as it were. But whereas Vanilla at least has a certain je nais se quois in its blandness-- a certain out-of-fashion purity not too dissimlar from how even a now-octogenarian would view that barely-contemporaneous time and episode— this canvas is painted with subtractive colors, producing a tastes-worse-than-even-its-shitly-pallor-would-suggest goulash.

anyway, so back to basketball. the point of "playing together more" isn't so that the 7'2" defensive savant who can't pass nor make a basket from further than 5 feet away from the rim gets more touches at the top of the key. it's so that everyone from the stars to the role players know exactly what their job is and, CRUCIALLY, what it isn't. if you can't shoot and can't dribble at the level of an all-conference Point Guard, go stand in the dunker spot or set a screen or both. literally anyone who isn't a top 25 point guard in the NBA cannot be trusted to dribble more than three times without dribbling off their foot and turning it over. and there's no shame in that: Klay Thompson scored 60 points in a game while dribbling a grand total of 11 times.

collaboration of the kind the OP describes, and somewhere between endemic and pandemic in the corp-o-collab-o-sphere isn't of the "oh wow that Capital Markets person we hired is actually even better at UX than at their real job" variety. it's a bunch of people just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks with absolutely no context and nary a second thought. because why should they? it's not impossible that there's a Good Will Hunting out there cleaning off the whiteboards and wiping down the Kombucha kegerator; to condescend that it is at all likely to bear fruit is the height of arrogance. wouldn't have been a very compelling movie, otherwise.

and yet your contention is that it's not that these people have too much time on their hands, it's that they don't have enough! pull aside your friendly neighborhood designer sometime and ask how thankful they are that everyone seems to have opinions on design because people seem to think that having eyes and a mouth are the only prerequisite qualifications for being a designer. good design collaboration: "hmm i think the font sizes between these views are a bit inconsistent". bad design collaboration: "hmmm... i think it just needs to 'pop' more".

high-performing collaboration looks like Watson and Crick, Jeff Dean and Sanjay Ghemawat, or The Beatles. not design by committee-of-people-who-have-no-particular-insight-and-don't-even-care-they-just-want-to-be-seen-to-be-collaborative. There is a specter haunting corporate america-- the specter of conspicuous collaboration.

Re: Collaboration sucks

#138
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are by and large hired for cleverness, so there’s a lot of selection that makes that true even if undergrads are not far off from average. It would be better if we were hired for wisdom. Don’t confuse cleverness and foolishness. You can be both. But devs aren’t usually the ones treating their reports like children and then acting surprised when their prophecies become self fulfilling. You can blame Taylor for that…

Developers may be hired for cleverness, but cleverness in code and technical matters does not necessarily carry over into cleverness with respect to office politics or good management.

Management often spends less time with the users than we do.

Re: Collaboration sucks

#139
For relatively straightforward groups whose tasks are self explanatory and/or isolated, sure. For any kind of invention, however, I don't think this line of thought works. Alan Kay has said in a number of places that Xerox PARC (likely) couldn't have worked if they had been remote, nor could it have worked if they hadn't had the time they did to goof off, argue, share hypotheticals, etc. Developing a shared intuition and connection with others in your group is an immeasurable quality that doesn't get enough love.

In other words, if your organization is made up of a bunch of geese that lay golden eggs, by all means let them lay eggs, but don't ignore the fact that your organization could itself be a goose that lays golden eggs together.

Re: Collaboration sucks

#140
Elon Elias Musk saw right through this as he silently stared at each and every one of Twitter's dream-team that was expecting the ride to go on. He saw right through the cracks, the Staceys, the Mikes. He had the final tweet and blew most of the crew. He would agree with you Charles, he would agree to the point of saving screenshots of your website so you can collaborate with his memes.
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