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.NET 10

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: .NET 10

#131

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

sfn42 wrote: post #124
ourmandave wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's bad enough when you've got constantly changing "best practices" from MS so the thing you wrote last year doesn't look anything structurally like what you're doing now. And all the 6-month-old on-line docs and tutorials aren't only useless, but time wasting.

So you don't like .NET, that's fine. I'm not saying everyone needs to use .NET. I'm saying pick one thing and stick with it. That said I think you're exaggerating those complaints, the docs for C# are quite good imo and I've been working with ASP.NET web apps for half a decade so far and I'm not seeing any problems like you're describing. Maybe you're miffed about the Framework to Core/.NET switch? That was a bit of…

> the thing you wrote last year doesn't look anything structurally like what you're doing now... all the 6-month-old on-line docs and tutorials aren't only useless, but time wasting.

This is indeed a complete exaggeration.

Re: .NET 10

#132

Post by SparkBomb »

dahauns wrote: post #118
SparkBomb wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used Rider for several years now on and off. Generally I would put these at the top of the list. - Integrated ReSharper. - Far better performance (it isn't even close) - Doesn't take 30GB of disc space up. Visual Studio has been a massive disc space hog since forever. Rider is a few hundred megabytes IIRC. - Less bugs (Visual Studio has been progressively getting worse). - There was better tooling IMO around NuG…

>- Less bugs (Visual Studio has been progressively getting worse). Eeeeeeh...it's not quite roses and rainbows on the Rider side either, and that's coming from a Jetbrains fanboy. (Although admittedly, I'm not really up-to-date on the current state of VS in day-to-day work) But yeah, the coding/refactoring support (Resharper et al) and general quality and integration of tooling (database tools, package managers, vers…

> Eeeeeeh...it's not quite roses and rainbows on the Rider side either, and that's coming from a Jetbrains fanboy

Obviously. IME it is better than Visual Studio.

> But yeah, the coding/refactoring support (Resharper et al) and general quality and integration of tooling (database tools, package managers, version control, debugging (esp. multi-process) etc.) is the big one for me.

I rarely use any of these tools tbh. I just want Resharper and something that works reliably on Linux. I would transition to using vim entirely but half the vim stuff I like using I can't use with Windows (work is never not going to use Windows).

Re: .NET 10

#133

Post by loldot_ »

netol wrote: post #112
jitbit wrote: post #2

For us, every .NET upgrade since .NET 5 has gone surprisingly smoothly and reduced CPU/RAM usage by 10–15%. We were even able to downgrade our cloud servers to smaller instances, literally. I wish .NET was more popular among startups, if only C# could get rid of the "enterpisey" stigma.

The XML/config side of things just isn't for everyone. Sometimes Go's simplicity wins out.

One of the big features in .net 10 is the ability to do `dotnet file.cs` to run an application, with package import and assembly attributes directly in the file.

Re: .NET 10

#134

Post by formerly_proven »

ethin wrote: post #129

How is .NET debugging on the command line? I don't use IDEs that often and last time I tried making something serious with .NET I couldn't find any kind of reliable debugger that I could just spin up and get to grips with. And I wasn't exactly very keen on switching from VS build tools to full VS just to debug .NET apps.

Isn't the official .NET debugger only allowed to be used from Visual Studio and VSC? I recall Jetbrains had to remove debugging support from their IDE for a while due to that license. Also the whole kerfuffle around hot reloading first being added to .NET (Core) and then the code being deleted because it was supposed to be a VS-only feature.

These things to me seem like one faction in MSFT wants .NET to be an open platform and another faction wants it to be a sales funnel for Visual Studio.

Re: .NET 10

#135

Post by bonesss »

Xelbair wrote: post #70
tinyspacewizard wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start-ups should strongly consider F#. It's a force multiplier when you have a small team of strong developers.

>startups should consider niche language with extremely limited hiring pool. sure, but only if you're doing something that actually demands it - and actual innovation - instead of usual 'lets repackage XYZ as SaaS and growthhack' strategy.

F# is less popular, but it’s a first class .Net language with full MS support and integration onto .Net (VM and ecosystem). C# has been tracking F# and aiming for language parity for years (ie all your modern C# devs should be learning the same language facilities). F# is multi-paradigm so C# devs can write idiomatic C# with minor forced changes. And as a .Net language you can always decompile it into C# and keep going from there.

That’s a radically different proposition than, say, raw OCaml and not particularly niche. It also impacts hiring pools differently since competent functional C# devs are viable, but it tends to appeal to a certain calibre of dev.

Moving faster with fewer errors and more talented candidate pool are relevant to repackaged SaaS startups too. Leaves more time for the other stuff and scales better.

Re: .NET 10

#136

Post by jcmontx »

I've worked with .NET for over 10 years and we built our startup on top of it. Here are my thoughts:

Pros:

* Stability

* Very decent standard library

* Good balance between productivity and robustness

* Great package management

* Extremely easy to upgrade, so essentially free goodies (performance) every year or so

Cons:

* Very MSFT dominated (obviously)

* Subpar tooling outside of Windows (I'm looking at you C# Dev Kit)

* C# has way to many features, it feels bloated

* Culturally, it feels like .NET devs are less "passionate" about their work

* The freaking stigma of being a .NET dev: you will never be as cool as the guys who work with Node/Python/whatever

Edit: Also I'd like to add EFCore as one of the pros of the ecosystem. Hands down the best ORM. Others don't come close.

Re: .NET 10

#138

Post by Xelbair »

bonesss wrote: post #135
Xelbair wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>startups should consider niche language with extremely limited hiring pool. sure, but only if you're doing something that actually demands it - and actual innovation - instead of usual 'lets repackage XYZ as SaaS and growthhack' strategy.

F# is less popular, but it’s a first class .Net language with full MS support and integration onto .Net (VM and ecosystem). C# has been tracking F# and aiming for language parity for years (ie all your modern C# devs should be learning the same language facilities). F# is multi-paradigm so C# devs can write idiomatic C# with minor forced changes. And as a .Net language you can always decompile it into C# and keep goi…

don't get me wrong - i want F# features in C#! I like the ecosystem and both languages.

I'm just pointing out that no matter how cool the language is if it doesn't serve business needs(hiring, onboarding ,ease of replacing staff, target market) it won't be picked.

Re: .NET 10

#139

Post by masfoobar »

jitbit wrote: post #2

For us, every .NET upgrade since .NET 5 has gone surprisingly smoothly and reduced CPU/RAM usage by 10–15%. We were even able to downgrade our cloud servers to smaller instances, literally. I wish .NET was more popular among startups, if only C# could get rid of the "enterpisey" stigma.

I think the "confusing" aspect with C#, being part of the Microsoft eco-system, is that there are many smaller companies (and startups) that may have concern paying for such tools.

To the uneducated, C# is linked to Visual Studio.. the IDE.. and the Community edition if free as long as you are a student, open-source, and individuals. Professional and Enterprise are paid.

(Yes - there is Visual Studio Code)

Again, I am looking at this from the uneducated. With the above, as well as "going with other Microsoft products" things start to get more expensive. Need a database - should it be SQL Server? Should it be Windows Servers? etc.

Because of the above, I would not be surprised if Go is more popular especially for startups... alongside Linux, MySQL/Postgres, as well as other IDE or text editors. Sure.. I might agree that Visual Studio Code is suited for various programmers today.

Not suggesting you are wrong in any way. It's just the amount of money spent on Windows/Microsoft for small companies is rather large, compared to other alternatives that are just as good.

Re: .NET 10

#140

Post by CharlieDigital »

jitbit wrote: post #2

For us, every .NET upgrade since .NET 5 has gone surprisingly smoothly and reduced CPU/RAM usage by 10–15%. We were even able to downgrade our cloud servers to smaller instances, literally. I wish .NET was more popular among startups, if only C# could get rid of the "enterpisey" stigma.

I'm at a series-C, YC startup. We made a switch from TypeScript to C# two months back. Now we have a team of over a dozen backend engineers working on C# transitioning from TypeScript. 90% are working with C# for the first time. (We are still hiring backend C# engs!)

I can say that it has gone waaaaaay smoother than anyone would have thought. This is a decision (language switch) that the team has been putting off for a long time and simply suffering through some big time jank and complexity with TypeScript (yes, TS at scale becomes complex in a very different way from C# because it becomes complex at the tooling layer in an "unbounded" way whereas C#'s language complexity is "bounded").

Indeed, I think more teams should give C# a shot. My own experience is that C# and TypeScript at a language level are remarkably alike[0] that if you know one well, you can probably quickly learn the other. But the C# ecosystem tooling is more cohesive, easier to grok, and less fickle compared to JS/TS (as is the case with Go, Java, etc. as well).

There still remains a lot of mis-perceptions about C# and .NET in general and I think that many startups should spend the time to give EF Core a shot and realize how every option in JS-land ends up feeling like a toy. EF Core itself is worth the price of admission, IMO.

[0] https://typescript-is-like-csharp.chrlschn.dev/

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