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Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

blog.torproject.org

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Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You put that in italics and quotes, presumably to mock the people saying this but...yes, you should! Google does much worse things and is effectively a monopolist, so not using Firefox necessarily means using Google, which only entrenches their monopoly further. Bitch at Mozilla, sure, but don't stop using it.

>...yes, you should! Why? They're actively hostile to me as a user and nor catering to my needs and desires. >Google does much worse things and is effectively a monopolist Monopolies are the government's job to tackle so talk to your representative about Google, but leave suers alone to use what they like. When cars polluted we had the government force them to lower emission, not shamed users for buying cars. >Bitch…

It's not about whether you should or shouldn't use Firefox, it's about whether you should or shouldn't switch from Mozilla to Google.

If you want to boycott Mozilla, cool, stop using it and go to Ladybird or at least Waterfox. But if your solution to "this thing is hostile to me" is "so I'll switch to this other thing that is more hostile to me" and you don't see the flaw in that logic, I don't know how to explain it to you...

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#132
post #7

As a long-time firefox user (since the very earliest days of phoenix), I have to say: focus on open standards and delivering a faster and more secure browser. Make runtimes like electron out of your engine. DO shit that matters. Forget pocket, AI, and all that other junk. That is not your mission!

> focus on open standards

through many standards today are unilaterally pushed by Google, and standardized by a committed mostly influenced by Google and often only implemented by Google until there is enough pressure for Safari to maybe implement it way later....

and while in the past the standards where mostly pushing for a open, compatible, powerful web priorities seem to have shifted to focus more on pushing Google (Ad,App Focused) then Chrome interests

and it's not uncommon that standards aren't made in a generic simple easy to implement for anyone way but in a "that works well with how Chrome currently works internal way" and if your browser works different bad luck.

to make that even worse in the cases where Chrome/FF/Safari worked together there had been enough cases where Chrome had last minute forced changes to standards, or simple implemented them differently. I.e. the whole CORS having issues in FF isn't caused by FF not complying with standards but by Chrom last minute adding an exception to the standard as they implemented it slightly different and websites testing against chrome not against web standards.

which is the other problem, most websites implement "whatever works with Chrome" not web standards

so the whole open standards things is currently kinda not working, not for FF and neither for Safari (which to be fair is the new IE in the aspect of surprisingly lacking features everyone else has or having diverging buggy impl. Like pretty much every web dev team I have worked with had to do extra testing for Safari and frequently "doesn't work in Safari" tickets where FF mostly "just worked" as long as you didn't try to use the lasted grates chrome pushed web features.)

> Forget pocket, AI, and all that other junk. That is not your mission!

for pocket and a bunch of other projects they did shut them down, pocket is gone as you might not have noticed

but the mission is a browser which provides a good usage experience, and if there are features people expect from "alternative not Chrome" browsers you have to compete. If we look at what "AI" FF has this is mostly what you are seeing and many of the things aren't any of the "bad" things people associate with AI:

- site translation, chrome had that a long time and people start expecting it to exist

- automatic alt text generation, a very based UX/accessibility feature

- some "AI" auto grouping for tab groups, unneeded but you can do it with 2015th level of "AI" (i.e. pre LLM) and it shouldn't have bound much additional dev resources. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if it was mainly surprised to bootstrap the local AI internals needed for useful features like local AI based site translation.

- (experimental) link preview with AI summaries, that looks pretty goated if it works as advertised tbh. and might bring new people to FF.

- integration with an AI search engine, but, it's basically just another search engine choice so no issue here

- allow integration of 3rd party chat bots. No technical people (which can afford it) have started using chat bots _en mass_ (for daily life stuff like grocery lists etc.) Sure a lot of people on HN love to pretend that AI is only used by enthusiasts but that (sadly) just isn't true. ChatBot integration is becoming quite a must have for browsers, no matter how much I don't like it.

So all in all maybe except the tab group suggestions feature are all reasonable choices which make people use/stay with Firefox. Some being outright basic features commonly expected (site translate).

Lastly outside of telling you it exists when its added FF doesn't seem to try to push it onto people. And if you think that it's not okay if a software tells you about a new features less then once a month in average then IMHO that is a you problem.

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#133
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you brag about that? Honestly, to what end? If your goal is to put sand in the gears what difference is there between this and trolling, spamming or just good ol' fashioned DOS?

I can't speak for OP but I would do it to the end it demonstrates how frustrating these 'small inconveniences' actually are. Don't interrupt my workflow unnecessarily. The same reason I don't want adverts everywhere, or I use sponsor block for youtube. I didn't seek out advertisements so I can filter it out. I am not seeking out AI features so I don't add them to my browser. Mozilla and google and everyone it seems n…

Exactly, in my case I have the hidden disability of schizotypy which makes it harder for me to ignore things. If you are blind or dyslexic or have ADHD or any kind of cognitive problem you just don't need to have your spoons wasted by having dialogs cover content and user interface elements that you need to complete your tasks.

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#134

An AI sidebar doesn't bother me. But it should be an extension, not an inescapable part of the browser.

Not only that, AI providers shouldn't be a hardcoded list.

Firefox used to be the most configurable, everything plugable browser, what happened on that?

If a 1.0 was released today, would they have a hardcoded list of search engines?

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#135

I file a ticket with Firefox whenever an unwanted dialog pops up covering content. If you tag these as being accessibility related they get bounced back and forth between a few people before getting closed and thus pour just a little bit of sand in the gears.

Why would you brag about that? Honestly, to what end? If your goal is to put sand in the gears what difference is there between this and trolling, spamming or just good ol' fashioned DOS?

Why does FF brag about adding yet another useless "feature"? Sure, it might be more worthwhile to fuck over google and the likes though

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#136
post #7

As a long-time firefox user (since the very earliest days of phoenix), I have to say: focus on open standards and delivering a faster and more secure browser. Make runtimes like electron out of your engine. DO shit that matters. Forget pocket, AI, and all that other junk. That is not your mission!

> focus on open standards through many standards today are unilaterally pushed by Google, and standardized by a committed mostly influenced by Google and often only implemented by Google until there is enough pressure for Safari to maybe implement it way later.... and while in the past the standards where mostly pushing for a open, compatible, powerful web priorities seem to have shifted to focus more on pushing Goog…

Firefox used to push for open standards and not just IE6 standards coming from microsoft. This era feels worlds away from where we are now where chrome is the new ie6.

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#137
post #50

An AI sidebar doesn't bother me. But it should be an extension, not an inescapable part of the browser.

I'd love to be able to open up an arbitrary web page in this sidebar. It would be super valuable for research. They can obviously do it, since the AI sidebar also loads a web page, but the functionality is locked for some reason, and vertical splitting extensions are pure jank. I really wish Mozilla would focus on addressing some of the numerous user feature requests, rather than whatever the current trend is.

Would the split tabs feature that they are currently rolling out work for your use case?

https://windowsreport.com/hands-on-firefoxs-new-split-view-l...

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#139
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What "HD craze" was there from 2015-2020?

"HD" as a marketing buzzterm for products where "High Definition" technically doesn't make sense. Like adding 2.0 everywhere.

The only example of that I can remember was "HD sunglasses" but I don't recall that ever being a widespread fad. I only saw people ever joke about that.

HD as far as I ever saw it used generally referred to 720p and soon after 1080p. Which is a pretty objective, non-marketing definition. And the timeframe of 2015-2020 seems way off. 1080p was pretty standard by like 2010. YouTube started streaming 4K in 2010.

Re: Tor browser removing various Firefox AI features

#140

It makes me a little sad we only ever see FF hit the front page of HN for stuff people are angry about. The FF team building useful features like tab groups that are improving UX. But I guess if it bleeds it leads.

There was a whole experiment with this "Tab Candy" thing a few years ago. And it failed and Mozilla disabled it and it got silently removed, well, almost, because a fair amount of people complained. I wouldn't be surprised if today's tab groups go the same way. Browser innovation is hard and at this point most of the innovation is in forks of Firefox, rather than Firefox itself.
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