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ICE bought vehicles equipped with fake cell towers to spy on phones

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Re: ICE bought vehicles equipped with fake cell towers to spy on phones

#131

Post by JumpCrisscross »

cosmicgadget wrote: post #54
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What actions are you referring to The deportations to Ecuador despite a court order not to. Detaining an American and refusing him a lawyer [1]. Ignoring state law (where not superseded by federal law). [1] https://chicago.suntimes.com/immigration/2025/10/01/massive-...

Ecuador: my recollection is they did the deportations without process which is probably illegal and was therefore halted by SCOTUS pending a final decision. The administration sent a plane after a lower court had ordered them not to, then claimed incompetence. As far as I am aware, since then deportees have been given enough process that it hasn't required another trip to the shadow docket. I'd personally bin this un…

> since then deportees have been given enough process that it hasn't required another trip to the shadow docket

My understanding is a lot of them get deported before their cases have run course. That, in turn, robs them of standing.

> Depending on the scale, this could disprove the contention that ICE is largely acting within the law

I agree that everything being said here is allegation. That said, if we're waiting for unappealable judiical findings, that's could take us into the 2030s.

Re: ICE bought vehicles equipped with fake cell towers to spy on phones

#132

Post by dragonwriter »

seadan83 wrote: post #130
coredog64 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"due process" means "This is the process the government must follow" and is not shorthand for "You are allowed to appeal to the USSC". I think most people would be surprised how little process is owed to someone who is not legally present in the United States and how few opportunities there are for appeal.

The 14th amendment: "prohibits states from denying any person "life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"" The US constitution applies to all persons (people) inside of the USA regardless of citizenship. The amendment says PERSON, not CITIZEN. Therefore it should not matter at all how that person got here, they are due the same rights and process as __anyone__ else on American soil. That is the 14th amen…

> The 14th amendment: "prohibits states from denying any person "life, liberty, or property, without due process of law""

More relevant to ICE, is the 5th Amendment, which prohibits the federal government from doing that.

Re: ICE bought vehicles equipped with fake cell towers to spy on phones

#133

Post by JumpCrisscross »

stackskipton wrote: post #127
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is 9th Circuit Ruling that says states can if "a federal officer [must do] no more than is necessary and proper in the performance of his duty" but that's pretty untested ruling What? States have been fighting over this since the 19th century [1]. > States are loath to attempt to regulate Federal Law Enforcement by running it up the courts since their worry is it hits SCOTUS and they come back with "States ha…

Sure, States have been fighting over this since US Government was formed, however, I'm some ruling from 1812 does not matter. If you look at recent legal history, Federal Government has won in every case where Federal Law Enforcement was acting as Federal Law Enforcement Officers. My point is California has passed laws attempting to regulate but as of yet, has not attempted to enforce their laws at all. So are they r…

> If you look at recent legal history, Federal Government has won in every case where Federal Law Enforcement was acting as Federal Law Enforcement Officers

Not disputing, but do you have sources?

> My point is California has passed laws attempting to regulate but as of yet, has not attempted to enforce their laws at all. So are they really attempting or just doing performance art with laws?

This is fair. I think one of the smartest things a Democrat Governor could do right now is start arresting federal agents who are breaking state laws, e.g. around where they can be and how they must identify themselves.

As you say, it will probably be met sceptically by the courts, and almost certainly so by SCOTUS. But it will gum up the works and turn that person into a hero. If Trump fucks up and arrests them, their political ascendancy is assured.

Re: ICE bought vehicles equipped with fake cell towers to spy on phones

#135

Post by dragonwriter »

coredog64 wrote: post #60
code_runner wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you mean we created an environment where people could come and find success and live their lives, and we perhaps weren’t as strict as we could’ve been in some situations… I don’t think that violently kidnapping people off the streets, without showing badges, in unmarked vehicles, masked, etc is a punishment that fits the crime. Missing a court date once multiple years ago, failing to navigate a complex process, an…

"due process" means "This is the process the government must follow" and is not shorthand for "You are allowed to appeal to the USSC". I think most people would be surprised how little process is owed to someone who is not legally present in the United States and how few opportunities there are for appeal.

> "due process" means "This is the process the government must follow" and is not shorthand for "You are allowed to appeal to the USSC".

Questions of due process, as due process is a federal Constitutional guarantee, are controversies arising under the Constitution and laws of the United States, and, as such, are within the judicial power defined in Article III of the Constitution.

Re: ICE bought vehicles equipped with fake cell towers to spy on phones

#136

Post by hitarpetar »

coredog64 wrote: post #67
softwaredoug wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well also a lot of what they're doing to enforce laws without warrants, arresting citizens without cause, lack of due process, etc is illegal. But a lot of this won't change without "active, provocative, non-violent" resistance as Gandhi would say.

Out of curiosity, what makes "arresting citizens" illegal? If I'm in a crowd in the presence of a number of other law breakers, why would I think that I couldn't ever be temporarily detained? I mean, yes, it shouldn't be indefinite and there shouldn't be a high bar to clear to prove actual innocence, but we have process for this. I can be arrested without much provocation at all. I then have to be charged, I have the…

due process

Re: ICE bought vehicles equipped with fake cell towers to spy on phones

#137

Post by hitarpetar »

k33n wrote: post #78
softwaredoug wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it might be emotional if you're one of these people about to be sent to South Sudan It's either right or wrong for ICE to run a dragnet through a city, cuffing everyone, checking their papers, as they hope to find someone undocumented. Either human beings have rights and deserve due process, or they don't. People are reduced to the point of keeping airtags on them so loved ones and their lawyers can find them be…

[flagged]

Nothing more rational than dismissing other viewpoints as astroturfing

Re: ICE bought vehicles equipped with fake cell towers to spy on phones

#138

Post by dragonwriter »

coredog64 wrote: post #67
softwaredoug wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well also a lot of what they're doing to enforce laws without warrants, arresting citizens without cause, lack of due process, etc is illegal. But a lot of this won't change without "active, provocative, non-violent" resistance as Gandhi would say.

Out of curiosity, what makes "arresting citizens" illegal? If I'm in a crowd in the presence of a number of other law breakers, why would I think that I couldn't ever be temporarily detained? I mean, yes, it shouldn't be indefinite and there shouldn't be a high bar to clear to prove actual innocence, but we have process for this. I can be arrested without much provocation at all. I then have to be charged, I have the…

> Out of curiosity, what makes "arresting citizens" illegal?

Without probable cause? The Fourth Amendment.

> shouldn't be a high bar to clear to prove actual innocence

I see that you are comfortable with a presumption of guilt so long as the burden of proof of actual innocence isn’t too rigorous, but that’s exactly backwards.

Re: ICE bought vehicles equipped with fake cell towers to spy on phones

#139

Post by 15155 »

seadan83 wrote: post #130
coredog64 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"due process" means "This is the process the government must follow" and is not shorthand for "You are allowed to appeal to the USSC". I think most people would be surprised how little process is owed to someone who is not legally present in the United States and how few opportunities there are for appeal.

The 14th amendment: "prohibits states from denying any person "life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"" The US constitution applies to all persons (people) inside of the USA regardless of citizenship. The amendment says PERSON, not CITIZEN. Therefore it should not matter at all how that person got here, they are due the same rights and process as __anyone__ else on American soil. That is the 14th amen…

Being deported isn't legally deprivation of "life, liberty, or property."

Deportation is not a punishment and is entirely avoidable in 99% of cases: don't overstay or enter illegally.

Re: ICE bought vehicles equipped with fake cell towers to spy on phones

#140

Post by cortesoft »

mothballed wrote: post #110
cortesoft wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the law of this land is based on the Constitution, which gives the Supreme Court ultimate authority to interpret the law. That is what gives it the force of law. Now, the legitimacy of the CONSTITUTION is based on what we, collectively, agree on, however

If that's true that's the same thing as Supreme Court simply having all the power isn't it? SCOTUS largely serves as a veto power on the other two branches. If they can actually unilaterally make a binding interpretation of the constitution then they could simply declare the constitution is actually saying SCOTUS has all of the federal powers and that Clarence Thomas is King. SCOTUS has been relied on far too much as…

There are supposed to be checks on the power of the supreme court through both the ability to impeach justices and the ability to pass constitutional amendments. Those checks are not working as they are supposed to for many reasons.
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