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Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

pewresearch.org

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Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#131
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, seems likely in a lot of cases. But if the starting point is talking about someone who makes chronically irrational decisions then life is going to seem a bit hopeless. The issue isn't as much they're giving up as it is that they aren't making rational decisions. Thread ancestor was saying "Gambling thrives in contexts where a ladder to success doesn’t exist or is perceived as not existing". And I think that th…

Your opinion seems to be that poor people are poor because they're irrational, and that systemic things like billion-dollar corporations deliberately feeding them addictive behaviors in order to extract as much money from them as possible, is not actually a factor at all. I'm sorry but this comment is so out of touch with how poor people (or even people in general) actually function, I don't know what else to say.

> Your opinion seems to be...

I'd be impressed if you can link that back to something I said, I don't think my opinion is that at all. I haven't said anything about poor people, for example.

If someone has enough money that wasting it on gambling is a problem, then they clearly had no business giving up hope because "the system" doesn't have the ability to make their lives better. The system that makes their lives better is the money they just wasted, but invested in something productive.

Someone can't claim to be hopeless about the potential to improve their material comfort when the means to do so was just sitting in their bank account. They have money spare - start spending it to make life better.

I'm happy to accept that gamblers are irrational, but their problem isn't that the system is causing them to give up hope, their problem is that they are irrational gamblers. Sucks to be them, but it isn't anything to do with systemic external factors beyond casino advertising which is quite a specific thing and nothing to do with general hopefulness. Or the quite likely reality that they don't know what opportunity looks like despite it being right in front of them.

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say gambling in itself isnt immoral. The problem is that a small % of people get addicted and end up spending all their money and more on betting. And that the industry makes almost all their profits on those that are addicted.

Sure, we could get into a discussion on the morality of gambling itself, but if we look at pretty much every global ethical tradition (Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, etc.) it is frowned upon strongly. It seems to me like widespread gambling = negative social effects is a pretty widespread, obvious conclusion that most civilizations have reached. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling#Religious_views

From the wiki page, Christianity from the bible's perspective doesn't have a problem with gambling itself:

> Although the bible does not condemn gambling, instead the desire to get rich is called to account numerous times in the New Testament.

And the Catholic's problem with it is the competition:

> Some parish pastors have also opposed casinos for the additional reason that they would take customers away from church bingo and annual festivals where games such as blackjack, roulette, craps, and poker are used for fundraising.

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most individuals are going up against these very sophisticated statistical models created by teams of quants working with huge datasets that you have to pay substantial amounts to access. There are two things you might do as a bookmaker: (1) Perceive the truth of who is likely to do what, and set odds reflecting that perfect Platonic reality, but with a percentage taken off for yourself. (2) Adjust the odds you off…

Strategy (2) doesn't tell you how to come up with the initial prices, and bookies can potentially lose a significant amount from giving "bad" initial prices. If an individual is winning a lot of money from a bookie repeatedly because of these bad initial prices, then it is a sign that they might have a better model than the bookie, and so it is in the bookie's interest to ban them, since sports betting is a zero-sum…

> If an individual is winning a lot of money from a bookie repeatedly because of these bad initial prices, then it is a sign that they might have a better model than the bookie, and so it is in the bookie's interest to ban them

I don't think this follows. If an individual is winning a lot of money repeatedly in this way, it is a sign that the bookie should give their bets a lot of weight when adjusting prices. But that information is something the bookie might want.

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#135

That's always an interesting thing. Where does autonomy end and the right of the government to intrude into your private life begin. The bottom line, that something is bad for you seems to be so logical. But when you think about it a bit longer you see that there are so many things that are bad for you that it would be next to impossible to regulate all of them. Ok, so you only do it for the things that are really ha…

Generally, I take a realist perspective on this. The line is wherever the people who wield power want it to be given their understanding of their self-interest. Any talk of "should" is a rhetorical exercise to convince people that it's in their self-interest to join you and oppose the thing.

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#136
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal gambling debt is individual unless credited to a joint account no?

There's quite a lot of confusion about this question here. You are right that debt of this type are individual and other parties (spouses, heirs) can't be pursued for it. But it has to be taken into account in a divorce. Johnny and Janey have a $1m property, $200k savings, $200k retirement between them. They should each get $700k from a divorce (assume they were penniless students when they got together and acquired…

> She has to come up with $550k to keep the house, effectively paying off half of Johnny's gambling debt as well as buying out the difference between the house and the financial assets.

It is even worst - Jane has to pay half those debts even if she dont care about house. If assets minus debt go negative, which they do in case of gamblers, partner is in debt.

That is why the forst advice to partners of gamblers is to divorce asap. Because they easily end up paying for years.

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if your degenerate father gambles away your college fund, that's your personal responsibility?

Society already has rules against stealing other people's money.

A college fund your parents saved for you isn't your money unless the money is in your name (or possibly set up correctly at the bank). If they just save it in their name, they can spend away as they like. It is their money until it is actually in your name even if you were told it was there as a child.

Which is understandable in many cases if the family actually needs the money before someone goes to college.

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#138
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your opinion seems to be that poor people are poor because they're irrational, and that systemic things like billion-dollar corporations deliberately feeding them addictive behaviors in order to extract as much money from them as possible, is not actually a factor at all. I'm sorry but this comment is so out of touch with how poor people (or even people in general) actually function, I don't know what else to say.

> Your opinion seems to be... I'd be impressed if you can link that back to something I said, I don't think my opinion is that at all. I haven't said anything about poor people, for example. If someone has enough money that wasting it on gambling is a problem, then they clearly had no business giving up hope because "the system" doesn't have the ability to make their lives better. The system that makes their lives be…

You pretty much just repeated the same thing back, so yes, I think that is your opinion.

> If someone has enough money that wasting it on gambling is a problem

They don't have enough money, which is precisely the point. The link I shared shows how lower income people spend dramatically more of their money on lotteries and gambling.

> their problem is that they are irrational gamblers.

How do you think they got that problem? Why do you think they continue to have that problem? It seems to me, that you think it's because they aren't rational enough about managing the money they do have, which...is what you said before: poor people are poor because they're irrational.

You don't seem to factor in the idea that certain groups of people are taken advantage of by bad actors, and that these people become accustomed to this exploitation, and learn helplessness in the face of it.

I think the points I'm making here are pretty obvious truths to anyone that has interacted with / from a lower income background, where gambling, lottery tickets, and other "vices" are widespread. These aren't rational financial decisions, they're consequences of being exploited by more powerful forces.

A working class person addicted to gambling isn't going to suddenly go, "Oh, I should just invest this money into an index fund." That is entirely alien to that culture and group of people. It's not something they were taught, it's not something their friends do, and it's definitely not something the institutions around them are interested in doing.

Now, if you said that, "then the goal should be to educate people so they invest their money and don't just gamble it away," then sure, that's a noble one. But as you said:

> Sucks to be them

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#139

That's always an interesting thing. Where does autonomy end and the right of the government to intrude into your private life begin. The bottom line, that something is bad for you seems to be so logical. But when you think about it a bit longer you see that there are so many things that are bad for you that it would be next to impossible to regulate all of them. Ok, so you only do it for the things that are really ha…

Gambling companies have engineered sophisticated addiction machines that exploit the brain's weaknesses, so it's very different to most of the other things you listed. They also deliberately prey on the people most susceptible to getting addicted, and even engage in extremely predatory behaviour like giving high-risk targets all sorts of "free" perks and benefits in order to keep them gambling for as long and much as possible. I can't find it now, but a few months ago on HN was an article about one of these systems, where the gambler got a dedicated "advisor" that was giving them things like free rolls, free tokens to gamble with, free alcohol and even accomodations, all because they know the addicts will keep gambling and use their own money inevitably. They then ban people who are gambling too "smartly" or even just on lucky win streaks from participating in their "games".

Smoking is a great example and an almost 1:1 parallel to what's happening with gambling, they had teams of people and even paid off scientists to fabricate studies about the health benefits of smoking, and then used deceptive marketing that was very carefully crafted to ensure people tried it out, and the product itself is just inherently addictive. They ensured they can capture the next generation by specifically tailoring their adverts towards children and getting them curious to try tobacco.

As a result most of the world has banned tobacco advertising, and a lot of places are doing things like enforcing ugly generic packaging with extreme health issues plastered on the boxes, exorbitant prices & taxes on tobacco because of what Big Tobacco did.

Gambling should be treated the exact same as tobacco is and was. Advertising it should never be allowed in any context whatsoever, and the gambling spots and apps should have disclaimers all over the place indicating the dangers of it. Additionally, the actual companies should be heavily regulated to not be allowed to offer "perks" and to also not be allowed to pick who can play or not.

Gambling, like most things, is simply something that will always be a thing, so just like tobacco and alcohol it shouldn't be banned outright. That doesn't mean we need to let predatory practices proliferate. Nothing is stopping us from making gambling as unattractive as we reasonably can, both for the gamblers and the gambling companies. There will still be gambling, but just like tobacco there will be a lot less people doing it, and at that point the ones that are are at least as protected and informed as possible.

Re: Americans increasingly see legal sports betting as a bad thing for society

#140
post #65
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they chose their genes and the structure of their brain after all, how irresponsible of them! /s In general, something that happens at scale and consistently is not an individual problem. You have whole armies of very well funded designers of things like processed food, or games, working to deliberate find the faults in human brains, and to make politicians make the laws that lets them do it legally, and you say…

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Sure, some of them do that.

But seriously, mental illness exists. Other sorts of things affect the brain - hormones, cancers, dementia, injuries, etc. Some things really are completely out of your control and no amount of "personal responsibility" is gonna get you out of them nor avoid them.

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