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Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

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Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#131

Post by TiredOfLife »

rich_sasha wrote: post #102
chvid wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now the US under Trump is leading the diplomatic efforts toward Russia. I think Europe and the Ukraine would have been better served with European leaders doing this.

Russia has reaffirmed Ukrainian territorial sovereignty in 1990s, after splitting along said boundaries, in return for concessions partly in their favour (Ukrainian nuclear disarmament), then invaded Ukraine. Twice. And that's ignoring tons of smaller violations - some of which are still pretty big. What deal can you make with someone who just doesn't stick to the deals they agree to?

Then again in 2003. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Russian%E2%80%93...

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#132

Post by MattPalmer1086 »

adastra22 wrote: post #81
throwaway_dang wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has its own satellite network, its own rockets, the most advance missiles in the world (and demonstrated usage), has continually bombed Kiev and other parts of Ukraine .. but sure, let's listen to you spout your detached-from-reality comments about nuclear war. Contrast this with many "advanced" nations such as UK, EU, Australia etc. that can't even get a rocket into space. There was a period recently where th…

Civilian rockets and military/strategic rockets are not even remotely similar. Totally different technology driven by vastly different needs. Russia hasn’t had a technological edge in military rocketry since the 1950’s.

I believe they used a hypersonic missile before the US has fielded theirs?

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#133

Post by GeoAtreides »

general1465 wrote: post #122
js8 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NATO isn't fighting in Ukraine I think this view is delusional. NATO countries are supplying Ukraine with weapons, it's pretty conventional to consider this as being a party to the war. The only reason we don't say it openly is that elites want to maintain pretense that we are not in a war (that's unpopular in Europe and US) and that NATO is defense-only organization.

So USA was fighting USSR by supplying weapons to Afghanistan? USSR was fighting USA by supplying weapons to Korea and Vietnam?

I mean, I completely and utterly disagree with js8, but yeah, the wars you mentioned were called proxy wars between USSR and US, in the larger context of the Cold War

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#135

Post by scoofy »

severino wrote: post #18
fraboniface wrote: post #11

How do you (especially Europeans) understand this move from Russia? Can it really sustain a war against us? Does it want to break NATO by proving the US won't move?

What move, you mean about the drones? I first want to be sure about what happened. Remember that few years ago you were still being labeled as "Russian propaganda" if you had doubts about the NS incident.

Things are still being label "Russian propaganda" because Russia no longer has a free press.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#136

Post by js8 »

Yizahi wrote: post #128
js8 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which war? Yes, between Russia and Ukraine, Russia is the aggressor, and bigger. Between NATO and Russia, NATO is the aggressor (from Russian perspective) and bigger. Russia started the war in Ukraine to stop the NATO expansion. It's against the international law, but this intent was made pretty clear also in Georgia. EU and NATO then reacted with more NATO expansion, and supporting Ukraine militarily. They didn't of…

"Russia started the war in Ukraine to stop the NATO expansion."(c) - tell me now, exactly which NATO expansion has happened before the invasion of Ukraine, to trigger the war? You are lying, that's what it is. PS: to anyone else reading this, the last NATO expansion in the Russian direction has happened 10 years before the invasion, when Putin was hugging western leaders and not bothered at all by the "scary NATO". T…

Russia started those wars to prevent Georgia and Ukraine joining NATO, which was announced by G.W.Bush in 2007. I am not lying, read my comments more carefully.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#137

Post by js8 »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #114
js8 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NATO has not expanded into Russia. Russia has expanded into Ukraine. Morally you're correct, but on a practical level, Russia didn't want the NATO to be in Ukraine. Morality (or international law) doesn't always win - look at the Cuban missile crisis. > People join NATO in self-defence against Russia. Yes, the motivation of the joining countries is clear. What is less clear (and you should question), why they shoul…

Yes, the bully who keeps attacking their neighbours didn't want anyone to protect their neighbours. Going along with this seems like a terrible idea, if you value the bully not slowly expanding until they're your neighbour.

It's precisely this mindset, "us vs them", that neutral states cannot exist, which is at the heart of current escalation.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#138

Post by notmyjob »

askonomm wrote: post #52
notmyjob wrote: post #24

If only they started spending more on defense 10 years ago when they were being called on to do so instead of pretending Brexit and anti-immigrant sentiments were their biggest enemy rather than Russian energy dependence.

If only we didn't have a metric boatload of Russian interference and sabotage in our countries that constantly blocks any efforts to get free from their dependence.

While there is no consensus on whether Angela Merkel was "too friendly" to Russia— critics argue that her policies left Germany and Europe too dependent on Russian energy and that she failed to take a sufficiently tough stance against Vladimir Putin. Supporters, including Merkel herself, have defended her diplomatic approach as a pragmatic and necessary strategy given Russia's place in Europe.

Even today money flows from US allies including NATO member states into Russia to buy gas rather than into the military and defense systems that might have prevented the bloodbath in Ukraine.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/merkels-lack-of-regrets-i...

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/11/trump-germany-russ...

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/the-tr...

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#139

Post by scotty79 »

piskov wrote: post #48
scotty79 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you believe those were russian drones intentionally sent?

It’s in the realm of probability but very thin for me. As always: the means, the benefits. How would Russia benefit? > EU leaders meeting in Copenhagen backed plans to strengthen European defenses, including a proposed "drone wall," after recent drone incursions over Denmark raised fears of Russian hybrid attacks. Officials said the initiative would focus on eastern airspace protection and sit alongside projects for…

> As always: the means, the benefits. How would Russia benefit?

Ah, they can't be behind it because they never, ever make mistakes and everything they ever do serves them somehow.

In the meantime, in real world russia hasn't made a single good decision in almost 4 years.

> Ah, those sweet-sweet frozen assets. Also see how this piece implies Russian without any proof.

When you talk about mountain climbing you also silently imply that gravity exists.

What's the alternative?

> Also the more you fear monger the EU population, the more you can continue the war:

It's not exactly fear mongering. Europe is gearing for war and I don't think even immediate russian surrender could stop it at this point. Europe will steamroll russia in the following decade or two. There are no decisions to be made anymore. Now the stage is fully set and history just plays out.

The idea you can lay down arms up to the last moment before conflict is a pipe dream. It pretty much never happens.

Re: Europe Can No Longer Ignore That It's Under Russian Attack

#140

Post by AndrewDucker »

js8 wrote: post #137
AndrewDucker wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the bully who keeps attacking their neighbours didn't want anyone to protect their neighbours. Going along with this seems like a terrible idea, if you value the bully not slowly expanding until they're your neighbour.

It's precisely this mindset, "us vs them", that neutral states cannot exist, which is at the heart of current escalation.

Nobody is forcing anyone to join the "Resist the violent bully in your doorstep" club.

It just seems to happen naturally when the violent bully starts attacking their neighbours.

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