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Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

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Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#131

Post by rossdavidh »

Having worked as a programmer for twenty years, most of that as a contractor (hence a different employer about once a year), I have never been asked to do anything illegal. This isn't said to mean no one is, but rather that, if you are asked to do something illegal, it is weird. It isn't the normal, messed up capitalist system, it isn't typical bureaucratic nonsense, it isn't the imperfect state of the world we live in. Most companies don't ask their programmers to do something illegal.

Therefore, if you are, you should leave that company, pronto. They're weird and probably desperate, and it is likely to get even worse. It's not normal. Get out, quickly.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#133

Post by jjmarr »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #125
mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Canada, (B) is how it works for engineers, including software engineers.

We are using the term 'software engineer' in two different ways: 1. The way most people here on HN, and most people in the US, understand it. 2. The way the laws in most of Canada (but not Alberta) define the term. AIUI someone can design and develop software for pay in Canada without declaring themselves to be a 'software engineer' and without signing a code of ethics. Is that correct?

It's unclear and barely enforced in Canada. Ontario has a two-step test for defining "software engineering":

* The development of the software required the application of engineering principles (ie. "a systematic, disciplined, quantifiable approach to the development, operation, and maintenance of software")

* The software concerns the public interest (ie. there is a reasonable expectation that failure or inappropriate functioning of the system would result in harm to life, health, property, economic interests, the public welfare or the environment).

In practice, LinkedIn is full of "software engineers" and anyone with a P. Eng uses it as a suffix.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#134

Post by musicale »

sltr wrote: post #3

Software developers should sign a code of ethics, like other professions do and then cite it when asked to do unscrupulous things. This would work for activities that aren't illegal but still unethical, like defaulting user privacy choices to open/public. Citing professional organizations like ACM or IEEE would deter retaliation.

ACM has a code of ethics. However, it does not seem to be enforced against many companies that routinely violate it.

https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#135

Post by tverbeure »

DennisP wrote: post #130
tverbeure wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know plenty of people who saved for years to get a downpayment for a house and then used all of that for just that. After that, it will take a while to replenish their emergency fund with very little margin of error. A job loss would be devastating.

My claim is that that's a bad decision, for exactly that reason. Job loss can happen for any number of reasons, often without warning. Getting a mortgage without any cushion for job loss is a huge risk. Note also that I'm talking about highly-paid software engineers, not about people in general. Lots of people in the US make way less money than senior software engineers, and they manage to get by. Live at that level…

No, you’re claiming they have a spending issue, with the typical judgemental holier-than-thou undertone. My example is not that.

And I’m talking about my SWE neighbors in SV who have a desire to buy their own house just like almost everybody else. It’s just wrong to claim they have a spending issue.

They may be highly paid, but the house prices are commensurately higher too.

It is nearly impossible in the US in general to buy a house without taking on some amount of financial risk. It has nothing to do with being wasteful with money.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#136

Post by LiquidSky »

bigiain wrote: post #122
ajross wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the enforcers dgaf about you. This is the attitude that lands otherwise-normal-seeming people in jail. They dgaf about you until they do. Maybe the prosecutor needs an easy win. Maybe they have a wealthy patron you offended. You don't know. And casual cheating becomes criminal very quickly. Charlie Javice, to get back to the core subject, seemed to genuinely think she was on the right side of the line. All she was…

> I think a lot of people in our world need to spend a little more time in introspection. Sadly, I suspect most or all of the investor class of people "in our world" have done this introspection. They've checked with their peers and lawyers, and decided it's a perfectly acceptable risk to have the founders and staff of a company they're already invested in do illegal things and potentially end up in jail, if it makes…

I'm not sure it's even at that level of rationality. People just don't think bad things will happen to them, either through naivety or a mistaken belief that they're so superior they'll never be caught. Jail is something that happens to other people, stupid people, not to me.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#137

Post by peterpeppers »

jcz_nz wrote: post #114

In 2010 WellPoint was found to be automatically targeting insurance policies of women with breast cancer for cancellation, using any pretext. Angela Braly was the CEO at the time, now at ExxonMobile. WellPoint was the second largest health insurer in the US at the time. This required a lot of business analysis and software development - and people had to realize what this code was doing. I’m guessing bonuses were pai…

In the 2010s, we had a similar situation but it wasn’t illegal.

I used to work for a large drug distributor both pre and during the opioid epidemic.

At the time (pre-SUPPORT Act), distributors weren’t required to notify the DEA about anomalous ordering so we didn’t provide data to law enforcement unless they sent a subpoena.

To increase profits, we identified our best customers of opioids and updated our inventory tracking system to send rebates and early warning notifications to providers so they’d buy more earlier.

Each provider has a sales rep (territory) mapped so we could figure out bonuses easily.

We the software engineering team were paid well for it, but not as much as the sales reps who got a percentage of the buy.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#138

Post by throwaway173738 »

tpoacher wrote: post #51
philipallstar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When your access to food, housing, heating and healthcare for your family are dependent on your income, you may find yourself facing very difficult decisions This is the time when your ethics are tested. Anyone can do the right thing when they're getting paid for it.

There's a nice Jordan Peterson quote: > There was a lesson to learn from the holocaust. We're always reminded that: "Never forget, we've learned our lesson." "What was the lesson?" That's the question. The lesson is, "You're the Nazi". No-one wants to learn that; If you were there, that would have been you. You might think "Well, I'd be Oskar Schindler and I'd be rescuing the Jews." It's like, no, afraid not. You'd a…

You might want to think about why Petersen wants you to think you’re the Nazi. What change is he trying to effect in our culture, and how does that belief support his desire? Rhetoric always aims to effect some change in the attitude of the listener, and never without some benefit of the speaker.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#139

Post by throwaway173738 »

thyristan wrote: post #40
barney54 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not moral to break the law in the furtherance of fraud. That’s the point.

But if the fraud secures the livelyhood of $bignum children and they would starve without their parents committing that fraud?

I think my son would rather have me in his life than have me in jail.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#140

Post by muzani »

bobthepanda wrote: post #120
muzani wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's article 32 of the GDPR. It also includes protection from social engineering. In all honesty, I haven't checked if it's true, but you can use AI to find a foreign law that fits and cite it word for word.

AI can, and will, hallucinate legal cases and laws to make you happy. This happened pretty quickly after ChatGPT was introduced into the world: https://apnews.com/article/artificial-intelligence-chatgpt-f...

Of course it can. But it's more precise than Google and it's easy to fact check.

https://gdpr-info.eu/art-32-gdpr/

Once you link the actual law, it becomes more of a checklist and less of a principle though.

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