Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

masteringemacs.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 283 posts

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#131

Post by sph »

I bought a ZSA Moonlander a few years ago and it went a bit like this:

1. Unpack and immediately set up a Colemak-DH layout. Customize the layout twice a day for 4 months. This is PAINFUL, slow and unproductive.

2. Got comfortable with Colemak and stopped doing any typing exercises. Still tweaking my layout.

3. Didn’t know where to position my mouse, so I got an Apple Trackpad 2 that sits beautifully between the two halves. Works great on Linux. Keep the mouse around for gaming.

4. Finally productive. I make minor changes to my layout every 6 months. Colemak is ingrained in my muscle memory. It’s just so comfortable.

And don’t worry about forgetting how to type QWERTY; the secret to retain muscle memory is that an ortholinear split keyboard is sufficiently different from a regular one that it’s like learning a completely new instrument. Hard at first, but it would be hard even if the layout was familiar; might as well then switch to something better than QWERTY.

I love my split keyboard now. Games are a bit annoying but I can easily switch to my gaming-QWERTY-hybrid layout (QWERTY on the left hand, colemak w/ tweaks on the right). Specialist tools like Blender might need minor rebinding to find comfort.

When I type on a regular laptop, I find shift+numbers for symbols to be hilariously unergonomic compared to my symbol layer, I don’t know how the hell people cope doing Rust or Haskell or even Lisp.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#133

Post by distances »

DanHulton wrote: post #79
Jcampuzano2 wrote: post #8

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

As an FYI, I had a similar issue and tried a whole lot of things, including different mechanical keyboards, with which I had a variety of successes and failures. But ultimately what REALLY helped was going to physiotherapy and identifying muscle groups in my back that were weak, causing me to sit weird and support my arms with muscles in my shoulders that weren't designed for that. And because all of this is connecte…

I have somewhat similar experience. I had wrist pain for years, using a wrist support and topical pain gel. MRI and other tests were inconclusive, it wasn't any of the typical problems.

A physiotherapist said the problem is not the wrists but that the pain comes from higher up in the arms. I started going to the gym, and like for you, the issues are just gone now. I haven't worn the wrist support since.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#134

Post by jacobolus »

mewse-hn wrote: post #87
Twey wrote: post #73

> proponents of mechanical keyboards say you need fewer keys than a regular keyboard, for _reasons_ That's a bit of a generalization. Mechanical keyboards like the Hyper7 exist that have enough for even the most key-hungry typist. If you want an ergonomic mechanical keyboard with many keys there are also some of those out there, like the Kinesis line or the Glove80. That said, one thing people mean by ‘ergonomic’ is…

I'm a mech keyboard enthusiast and an ansi 104 full size ride-or-die > (Because subcultures are subdivided recursively, the _gaming_ mechanical keyboard subcrowd also often like small keyboards, for reasons I don't really know but are presumably quite different from the reasons the ergonomic mechanical keyboard subcrowd have.) The explanation I've always heard for TKL for gamers is that removing the numpad leaves mor…

You're skeptical that some people need to use the mouse a lot? Or you're skeptical that bringing the mouse closer to the mouse hand's typing position / closer to the body improves comfort?

I found that when, e.g., using Photoshop, a keyboard without a number pad was a nontrivial improvement.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#135

Post by mickeyp »

fleekonpoint wrote: post #119

Not sure if the author is reading these comments but if you like the Moonlander but don’t like how the thumb cluster is tied to the tenting angle, I strongly recommend their ZSA tenting solution. It makes the whole thing a lot sturdier but more importantly it lets you adjust the tenting angle independently from the thumb cluster angle. You can also probably find used ones online. I know you mention it already in the…

Good to know, thanks! Now that I 3d print (apropos hobbies with infinite depth...) I would probably just CAD design and print my own instead, but I've come to accept the limitations, such as it is, of the moonlander's tenting design.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#136

Post by mickeyp »

danpalmer wrote: post #120
mickeyp wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I switched from a Moonlander to a UHK, and the programming time is ~instant. You click flash and in 1-2 seconds it's done. For the Moonlander you have to download the firmware, find the file, drag and drop onto the flashing tool, and wait 10+ seconds. It's amazing how much of a difference that made for me. Actually I point out you can use webusb to flash it (if you use Chrome) further down ...

That must be a new feature? This didn't exist when I got my UHK, and was why I ended up selling my Moonlander. How long does the flash take? Having it in Chrome is a great step forward, but if it still takes 10-20s to flash that would still prevent the sort of feedback loop that I found so transformational.

Seconds. I mean, something on the order of that, anyway. Fast enough to iterate but I mean it's still the weakest link in the iteration chain of course.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#137

Post by utopiah »

Twey wrote: post #73

> proponents of mechanical keyboards say you need fewer keys than a regular keyboard, for _reasons_ That's a bit of a generalization. Mechanical keyboards like the Hyper7 exist that have enough for even the most key-hungry typist. If you want an ergonomic mechanical keyboard with many keys there are also some of those out there, like the Kinesis line or the Glove80. That said, one thing people mean by ‘ergonomic’ is…

> proponents of mechanical keyboards say you need fewer keys than a regular keyboard, for _reasons_

Well "reasons" is quite obviously travel distance and thus time. If your fingers are always on, or nearby, the resting position (home row) then you go faster and don't stretch in repeated weird (ergonomically speaking) ways.

This though comes at a BIG cost, namely layers and other tricks to make "far" thing stay "close", which is cognitive. You have to remember where things are and how to activate them. Until it comes second nature because you drilled for so long then it might not be worth it for most.

The "reasons" are not arbitrary.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#139

Post by rswail »

bostik wrote: post #129
rswail wrote: post #124

So I have a WASD ISO full keyboard with Cherry Blue keys that I did custom MacOS keytops for that is starting to lose both keytop prints and the keys are starting to occasionally misfire. How hard is it to find a full 101/104 mechanical keyboard, with cherry blue, ISO layout (ie big upside-down Enter/Return) with customizable keytops that are in en-US and have the MacOS keytops (L: control/option/command, R: command/…

Keychron? I realise their prebuilt variants may have ISO layouts only for the various EU market segments, but they all run QMK so you could reflash with en-US keymap. They come with a set of replacement Mac/Win keycaps already, and have a physical switch to flip between the two variants. Then reshuffle the physical keycaps to match your layout. (Disclosure: I have two of their ISO keyboards: Q10 and Q11. Both require…

The keychron K10 max seems closest to what I want and has the keytops I want (with a bit of rearranging). The UK keytops are the closest to what I want,

I already use Karabiner to swap a few things, so that's probably the closest.

Just need to be able to get blue switches, I WFH and there's no one around to be bothered by the clicking.

Considering I started "typing" on an ASR-33, and then an original IBM PC, I want the clicks :)

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#140

Post by distances »

dotancohen wrote: post #4

All I want is a quality split mechanical keyboard with Function keys. I use an IDE all day, I don't want to pull quadruple buckies every time I debug. The Matias Ergo Pro is almost perfect, but I had two of them and they both failed within one year. I had one of each switch type (low force and regular) - both were missing some button presses and repeating other button presses.

You got a lot of exotic suggestions, I'll give one closer to normal: Perixx Periboard 535. Split (though non-adjustable), low profile mechanical switches with three options, three tilting levels, wired or wireless, with or without numpad. And has function keys. Also quite cheap.

I got the wired option with tactile brown switches and numpad, and I've been happy with this. I was looking for a replacement for MS Sculpt and didn't want one of the wild models, this finally ticked all the boxes.

https://perixx.com/products/periboard-535

DE: https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0BZZJH9W2

US: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BLT4HDPR

Post reply on HN