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Denmark wants to push through Chat Control

netzpolitik.org

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Re: Denmark wants to push through Chat Control

#131

Post by rixed »

maxdo wrote: post #103

You westerners are way too delusional about the world we’re living in. I just had a conversation with American colleagues about life in Europe. And the things that stood out were “cookies policy,” trash recycling, and such trivialities. Meanwhile, Europe is already at war. China openly wants to dismantle the good life Americans take for granted. Their news is full of militaristic propaganda, day after day. This isn’t…

"your adversary"?

I think this post makes clear who our adversary really are.

Re: Denmark wants to push through Chat Control

#132

Post by boltzmann-brain »

aprilfoo wrote: post #71
homarp wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

see also https://tuta.com/blog/france-law-encryption

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_European_Union , "legal acts include regulations, which are automatically enforceable in all member states": any move by national parliaments would be overruled. Interesting that this national law was pushed by people in an alliance around Macron: the same team which might sign the opposite for the EU. Just a drop in an ocean of nonsense, from where such a dangero…

It's not hard to imagine why. They want to spy on their subjects, and don't want to be told how to do it. Hence spying yes, EU no.

Re: Denmark wants to push through Chat Control

#133

Post by boltzmann-brain »

timschmidt wrote: post #32
lordnacho wrote: post #30

What I don't understand is, why don't the authorities think the actual bad guys will avoid the surveillance? It seems to me that organized crime will find their own solution, and the rest of us will occasionally have a snooping policeman checking our private messages. It's not unknown, even in Denmark, that people who are given access to private data will abuse it, eg snooping on ex girlfriends, that kind of thing. W…

I think most people, if pressed, would share your evaluation. However, even though surveillance is always marketed and sold as a tool for law enforcement, I think the people proposing such bills are aware that it's primary use is for political control, power, and espionage. Safety is the bait in the bait and switch. So the measure is not whether or not surveillance actually works for making people safer. But whether…

While it's easy to start believing this is the only motive, the truth of the matter is that a lot of stupid people do crime. So even if you only catch the stupid criminals, you still catch a bunch of criminals.

And I mean _stupid_. You wouldn't believe how intensely stupid some of those people are, but read some court records and you will come away deeply surprised we are making it as a species.

But yes, there is no doubt that what you mention is a major motivator for at least some of the people pushing for it.

P.S. I'm not saying "stupid => does crime", please don't read that into what I said above - I'm just saying that `#("stupid and also does crime")` is a large number.

Re: Denmark wants to push through Chat Control

#134

Post by timschmidt »

boltzmann-brain wrote: post #133
timschmidt wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people, if pressed, would share your evaluation. However, even though surveillance is always marketed and sold as a tool for law enforcement, I think the people proposing such bills are aware that it's primary use is for political control, power, and espionage. Safety is the bait in the bait and switch. So the measure is not whether or not surveillance actually works for making people safer. But whether…

While it's easy to start believing this is the only motive, the truth of the matter is that a lot of stupid people do crime. So even if you only catch the stupid criminals, you still catch a bunch of criminals. And I mean _stupid_. You wouldn't believe how intensely stupid some of those people are, but read some court records and you will come away deeply surprised we are making it as a species. But yes, there is no…

> While it's easy to start believing this is the only motive

No one said that. Files leaked by Snowden describe NSA's activities as durable, even against legal attack, thanks to layers upon layers of digital, procedural, legal, and other forms of defense in depth. Among them, plausible deniability and dual use technologies. You have pointed toward both. So their tactics worked on you.

> But yes, there is no doubt that what you mention is a major motivator for at least some of the people pushing for it.

Don't forget that ubiquitous surveillance is exactly the tool most useful for blackmailing or discrediting opponents as well.

Re: Denmark wants to push through Chat Control

#135

Post by _carbyau_ »

_carbyau_ wrote: post #97
sterlind wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American, and our politicians are starting to discuss forcibly institutionalizing all trans people. living my days out in a padded cell is not my idea of liberty, thank you. I'm getting out of here.

They start with minority groups and most people don't think it will affect them. Until one day, one of their associates are taken away. Then they are faced with the cognitive dissonance that either: 1. the authorities are good and correct 2. or the authorities have been evil and horribly wrong the whole time with your support which makes you complicit. And no one wants to think of themselves as being complicit in evi…

Huh. Clearly this comment itself has been rugpulled. Wonder why. Didn't meet someone's standard I guess...

Re: Denmark wants to push through Chat Control

#136

Post by rdm_blackhole »

You know what, let it go through!

If the European people are too stupid to stop it and simply keep on voting for the parties who support this sort of law, then so be it.

The criminals will move on to other means of communication, the privacy minded folks will move to sideloaded Signal-like apps and take their friends and families with them if possible and the rest will just have to learn to live under the new EU-Stasi regime and watch their privacy being stripped a little more day by day.

Re: Denmark wants to push through Chat Control

#137

Post by Gud »

boltzmann-brain wrote: post #128
sgc wrote: post #59

Can somebody explain to me how backdooring every app does not lead to the real risk of an entire population's bank accounts being emptied, or similar more hidden but widespread attacks that absolutely cripple any country doing this? Almost immediately, enemy State actors will have almost as complete access as the government passing the law; blackmail will become trivial; they could just subtly weaken adversaries nons…

Maybe it's a good idea for the ones pushing this because that is the intended state . Don't forget, Russia has trillions of dollars for bribes.

Russias GDP is on par with South Korea’s.

Hate to be that guy, but source?

Re: Denmark wants to push through Chat Control

#138

Post by grimblee »

I had a thought reading the comments here but isn't this a ploy to break the EU, there is no way individual population will abide by it, this will increase recentment against the EU and trigger exits. Too many actors would benefit from this to make clear accusations but the fact it is American companies proposing their technologies is a first indication.

Re: Denmark wants to push through Chat Control

#139

Post by downrightmike »

dkga wrote: post #116
stephen_g wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just making sure everybody realises (because the comment sounds a tad sarcastic), but that comment is completely true - the politicians have quite seriously exempted themselves and certain types of people.

What other certain types of people?

The guys that get them things without asking questions

Re: Denmark wants to push through Chat Control

#140

Post by Gud »

Time to dismantle the EU. The writing has been on the wall for a long time.

I moved from a country that used to have strong privacy laws(Sweden) to another that still has them.

Although Switzerland is far from perfect, it is a stable democracy with protections for its citizens.

The problem is when you build these gigantic political organisations, like the EU or USA, there is nowhere to go when the political elite decides to ram down the ideology du jour down your throat.

The world should be moving towards decentralisation, direct democracy and voluntary cooperation, but unfortunately, the opposite is the case.

Peace

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