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How can I influence others without manipulating them?

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Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#131

Post by jhanschoo »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #115
antonvs wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much like saying "murder is wrong", the wrongness is a part of the definition of the word. There's no need for evidence or logic, beyond understanding what a definition is.

Neither rape nor murder are inherently, definitionally wrong. There are situations in extremis where murder and rape are considered justifiable: in war, murder is often praised; and in an "everyone else is dead, humanity will go extinct" situation (e.g. the subjective belief of Lot's daughters, according to some traditions, in Genesis 19:31–36), rape might¹ be considered permissible. And both words are used to refer…

You are mistaken.

> in war, murder is often praised;

The killing of an enemy combatant, for example, is usually lawful, praised and not considered murder. Generally speaking, the killing of a civilian is sometimes a war crime and considered a murder.

You also have a lot to say on the nuanced ethics of killing and on sexual violence, but these deal with the underlying concepts themselves and the words don't matter; in fact philosophers frequently give common terms a specialized, ad-hoc definition when they want to discuss these concepts themselves.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#132

Post by eviks »

lukan wrote: post #122
eviks wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, the earth you walk is indisputable flat have you never seen a hill or a hole?

Yes, I did. I also grew up watching scientific space videos before I could read and frequently making holidays at the sea as a kid. But other people grew up in flat areas, far from the sea and maybe exposed with too much BS and maybe drugs at some points in their life, so ended up with a very different point of view. It was interesting for me to find ways to maybe guide them back to reality and sometimes I succeeded…

> On average and to our senses the earth is pretty undisputable flat.

That's very easy to dispute

> have you never seen a hill or a hole?

Ok, fine, "other people ... maybe exposed with too much BS", but let's not pretend sticking to some patent nonsense can be traced to simple observations when those don't exist, that's not how you become a true believer

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#133

Post by lukan »

eviks wrote: post #132
lukan wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I did. I also grew up watching scientific space videos before I could read and frequently making holidays at the sea as a kid. But other people grew up in flat areas, far from the sea and maybe exposed with too much BS and maybe drugs at some points in their life, so ended up with a very different point of view. It was interesting for me to find ways to maybe guide them back to reality and sometimes I succeeded…

> On average and to our senses the earth is pretty undisputable flat. That's very easy to dispute > have you never seen a hill or a hole? Ok, fine, "other people ... maybe exposed with too much BS", but let's not pretend sticking to some patent nonsense can be traced to simple observations when those don't exist, that's not how you become a true believer

Ok yes, you can totally dispute that the earth we walk around is flat. It was mainly rhetorical reasons, why I used that wording. And I actually believe nothing is indisputable.

(But that does not mean I waste energy seriously trying to negate flat earth theory for good, I am more interested in the psychological reasons that makes people think like that)

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#134

Post by DonHopkins »

vdqtp3 wrote: post #58
motorest wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. No, it is not the definition of integrity. If you opt to double-down on positions you held in spite of being presented to evidence that contradicts or refutes your prior beliefs, the behavior you are displaying is opposite of integrity, s…

Rape is wrong. It doesn't matter what your evidence or positions or logic are, you will not sway me on that point. I suspect that sort of thing is what GP meant.

[flagged]

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#135

Post by DonHopkins »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #115
antonvs wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much like saying "murder is wrong", the wrongness is a part of the definition of the word. There's no need for evidence or logic, beyond understanding what a definition is.

Neither rape nor murder are inherently, definitionally wrong. There are situations in extremis where murder and rape are considered justifiable: in war, murder is often praised; and in an "everyone else is dead, humanity will go extinct" situation (e.g. the subjective belief of Lot's daughters, according to some traditions, in Genesis 19:31–36), rape might¹ be considered permissible. And both words are used to refer…

[flagged]

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#136

Post by Dilettante_ »

quackqquack wrote: post #119
vdqtp3 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rape is wrong. It doesn't matter what your evidence or positions or logic are, you will not sway me on that point. I suspect that sort of thing is what GP meant.

What if you're a duck

When the shitpost so bad it needs its own throwaway

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#137

Post by isodude »

croes wrote: post #82
isodude wrote: post #68

Only give positive feedback when they are doing the thing you want them too. Absence of positive feedback is as effective as negative feedback, with the positive effect of extracting the change you want instead of placing the change upon the person.

That sound a lot like manipulation. Like you train dogs.

Is it though? I would imagine the person wanting to change instead being forced. Where would you draw the line?

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#138

Post by quesera »

lukan wrote: post #93
Lewton wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space). or anyone who's been in a plane?

What kind of planes are you flying? I mean, I just checked, it seems under ideal conditions one could see the curvature of earth at 10.5 km height, but to me it was not really a convincing curvature last time I did a long flight. Your experience was different?

10.5km (34.4kft) is an ordinary cruising altitude for an ordinary commercial airliner.

The curvature of the earth can be quite apparent on a clear day at that altitude when flying over water. Or the midwestern US.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#139

Post by DonHopkins »

Lewton wrote: post #91
lukan wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. " Well, the earth you walk is indisputable flat. That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space). So I dare you to actually argue with flat earthers. It is a good way to test your basic scientific knowledge. If you poke deep, you will find, that most people learned science the way people learned re…

> That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space). or anyone who's been in a plane?

Square has.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#140

Post by DonHopkins »

lukan wrote: post #75
voxl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. Yet, much ink has been spilt on arguments to the contrary. Refuting some of these arguments is quite difficult, honestly, but none of the arguments really matter because they reject all the convincing evidence as conspiracy or magic. In this way, what you suggest demands significant labor on the part of the person arguing an obvious fact against an ideologue who will…

"The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. " Well, the earth you walk is indisputable flat. That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space). So I dare you to actually argue with flat earthers. It is a good way to test your basic scientific knowledge. If you poke deep, you will find, that most people learned science the way people learned re…

Prove to me that flat earthers aren't just trolls who don't believe a word they say.
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