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American Prairie unlocks another 70k acres in Montana

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Re: American Prairie unlocks another 70k acres in Montana

#131

Post by gnarcoregrizz »

polairscience wrote: post #60
rafram wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two very, very different situations. The UK is a small, densely populated country without large areas of true wilderness. Over 90% of the country's land is private. The one area of the UK where there are large expanses of land without many inhabitants is Scotland (due to the Clearances), but the land there is still mostly owned by large land barons, and so Scotland has a more permissive law that allows non-destructiv…

This is so false I can't even begin to describe it. And I say this as someone who nearly daily wanders around National Forest near his house. First, why would it hurt to codify land access in a clearer way. And second. There are continuous battles with private landowners of where and how to access the public lands that you claim mean we don't need traditional paths or easements. See the recent Wyoming corning crossin…

Yeah same thing happens around here. A dude here bought some land which surrounded an old popular access road to Cleveland national forest (socal), and promptly put a gate up... For a while it was the only convenient way to drive into the mountains from riverside county. Alternative routes were either closed from fires, closed to vehicles, or located on the other side of the mountain range. Lots of Facebook drama between this guy and people in the area trying to access the national forest. He has a camera pointed at the gate and regularly posts altercations and threatens to shoot people.

Re: American Prairie unlocks another 70k acres in Montana

#132

Post by rmah »

mgilroy wrote: post #47
uybguygkjhgjk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... the last time the UK had large herds of wild grazing animals was several thousand years ago. There's absolutely no way any herd of wild bison could exist in the UK's current "much more intelligent approach".

Visit Scotland. We've plenty of wild deer. There are even herds in Glasgow. Highlands are covered in them. We have road signs to warn drivers.

There are herds of wild deer a half hour outside NYC. Deer seem to be able to thrive anywhere as long as there aren't many predators.

The continental US (i.e. excluding alaska) has some 20+ mil wild deer, 200k bison, 1 mil bears, 3-4 mil coyotes, 13,000 wolves, 5 mil alligators, 10k+ mountain lions, etc, etc. Yes, most are in the vast western states. But deer and bears are common even in areas a just a couple hour drive outside of NYC. Thankfully no gators near NYC (except in the sewers, of course :-)

Re: American Prairie unlocks another 70k acres in Montana

#133

Post by lovich »

Razengan wrote: post #34
uybguygkjhgjk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... the last time the UK had large herds of wild grazing animals was several thousand years ago. There's absolutely no way any herd of wild bison could exist in the UK's current "much more intelligent approach".

Why do people create new accounts for posting contrary opinions?

I’m fairly contrarian so I’m not surprised to get banned on occasion but I’ve noticed in the past few months completely innocuous statements are triggering the “you’re posting too fast ban”

Re: American Prairie unlocks another 70k acres in Montana

#134

Post by jt2190 »

placardloop wrote: post #81
rafram wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two very, very different situations. The UK is a small, densely populated country without large areas of true wilderness. Over 90% of the country's land is private. The one area of the UK where there are large expanses of land without many inhabitants is Scotland (due to the Clearances), but the land there is still mostly owned by large land barons, and so Scotland has a more permissive law that allows non-destructiv…

The public land situation in the western US is vastly, vastly different from the situation in the east. Just like you’re saying comparing the US to the UK are two different situations, you also have to treat parts of the US separately. Almost all of the US’s public lands are west of the Rockies. If you live in Colorado, California, Oregon, Washington then you can basically throw a rock and hit some public lands. East…

Your linked source omits state and local managed land.

For example compare their map of Massachusetts with this map from the state: https://www.mass.gov/how-to/masswildlife-lands-viewer

Re: American Prairie unlocks another 70k acres in Montana

#135

Post by carefulfungi »

geye1234 wrote: post #20

The UK has a much more intelligent (though far from perfect) approach to land use. It has public rights of way (if on foot, horse or bicycle) crossing the whole country. You can walk from one end of Britain to the other without trespassing, and without using roads (much). Many of these paths are very, very old, in a few cases Roman or pre-Roman, although more are medieval. Until recently, they were based on common la…

Liability and access rules in the US vary by State. For example, Maine allows open access to private land by default (owners have to post to prohibit access) and protects owners from liability (as long as they don't actively create hazards). Some coastal states have public-right-of-ways along the shore... there's a lot variation, as always.

Fun to read about the other systems and considerations in this thread.

Re: American Prairie unlocks another 70k acres in Montana

#136

Post by jandrese »

soperj wrote: post #108
burkaman wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This segment is not as niche as it used to be and is frequently abused for enormous tax benefits now. There doesn't need to be any real economic or environmental value to the land, you can just pay someone to do a fake survey/appraisal and assign an astronomical value, and then not pay any taxes because you're now forgoing all that fake value with your conservation easement. > One example: the former Millstone Golf C…

Wouldn't that just be straight up fraud? They just bought the land for $5.4 million, that was clearly the actual value.

Yeah, but the government would have to prove it in court, which is hard and takes a long time. As long as there are a bunch of other people doing it chances are you will die of old age before law enforcement does anything about it. Lots of rich people crime works this way. Make it hard enough to prosecute and you can get away with it, especially when you can afford to hire good lawyers.

Re: American Prairie unlocks another 70k acres in Montana

#137

Post by jandrese »

DennisP wrote: post #117
bix6 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I go back and forth on this. I love the idea of preserving land but this also seems to be a way for the wealthy to insulate their home eg buy 10 acres next to your house and declare it undeveloped. Now you get an amazing property in a pristine zone that nobody can touch all while getting a tax break you don’t need and boxing out the next generation.

"Boxing out the next generation" is exactly what the law is for. I guess we have to decide whether we want more natural wilderness or more luxury homes with nice views. The only way I can think of to preserve the wilderness without any isolated homes for the wealthy is for the government to buy up the land. I'd probably support that, if we could get it done, but it does mean that if the money for it comes out of the…

So many problems with real estate come down to "got mine, fuck you" ordinances.

Re: American Prairie unlocks another 70k acres in Montana

#138

Post by jamiecurle »

georgeburdell wrote: post #54
geye1234 wrote: post #20

The UK has a much more intelligent (though far from perfect) approach to land use. It has public rights of way (if on foot, horse or bicycle) crossing the whole country. You can walk from one end of Britain to the other without trespassing, and without using roads (much). Many of these paths are very, very old, in a few cases Roman or pre-Roman, although more are medieval. Until recently, they were based on common la…

In the U.S., you as a landowner can be sued if someone gets injured on your property while trespassing. Understandably, people close off their land.

Same in the UK - it is called the Occupiers Liability Act. It's not black and white but the liability is on the Occupier. I know this because I own an area of ancient semi-natural woodland which I'm restoring back to the natural NVC type (basically, oak standards and hazel coppice). As part of my duty I have to go and survey all the boundary trees once every "reasonable period" and after storms or significant weather events. There's some nuance to in the liability I've got when considering the harm to trespassers, but staying on top of duties and having your auditing ducks in a row helps.

Re: American Prairie unlocks another 70k acres in Montana

#139

Post by cogman10 »

rafram wrote: post #49
geye1234 wrote: post #20

The UK has a much more intelligent (though far from perfect) approach to land use. It has public rights of way (if on foot, horse or bicycle) crossing the whole country. You can walk from one end of Britain to the other without trespassing, and without using roads (much). Many of these paths are very, very old, in a few cases Roman or pre-Roman, although more are medieval. Until recently, they were based on common la…

Two very, very different situations. The UK is a small, densely populated country without large areas of true wilderness. Over 90% of the country's land is private. The one area of the UK where there are large expanses of land without many inhabitants is Scotland (due to the Clearances), but the land there is still mostly owned by large land barons, and so Scotland has a more permissive law that allows non-destructiv…

> without large areas of true wilderness

Depends on your definition of large. You'd probably be shocked at just how much wilderness is in the UK.

Don't get me wrong, just about every farmable piece of land is growing food. However, you might be shocked at the presence of forests and camping grounds still to this day.

Either way, the right to roam in the UK is something I wish we had in the US. There are more than a few lakes, for example, that can no longer be accessed because they've been encircled by private land owners turning the lakes effectively private. Cutting off access to waterways and forests to turn them into playgrounds for the rich is gross.

    Well, as I was walking, I saw a sign there
    And on the sign it said "No Trespassing"
    But on the other side it didn't say nothing
    That side was made for you and me!

Re: American Prairie unlocks another 70k acres in Montana

#140

Post by hagbard_c »

lawlessone wrote: post #105
BeetleB wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the early 80's, Congress passed some laws that allow people to buy undeveloped land, and declare it to be undeveloped for perpetuity (no one can develop on it even if sold). The owner gets some tax benefits from doing so. It became a niche segment in the real estate. The idea is you find land that is cheap, but you have a feeling it has mineral wealth. You buy it cheap, get the survey done, and show that it was re…

> There are lots of environmental groups who closely monitor the land, and will file a lawsuit if they suspect you are developing on the land. Fighting lawsuits is part of the risk. Unless you intend to develop the land the risk seems pretty acceptable.

Only if you assume those 'environmental groups' are true to their cause and not running a shakedown operation (like e.g. the SPLC does in another politically contentious area) where they'll start accusing you of developing on your land if you don't pay them some contribution/fee/bribe.
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