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Java 25 officially released

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Re: Java 25 officially released

#131

Post by mnembrini »

AlienRobot wrote: post #114
lukev wrote: post #39

More new programs should be written in Java/on the JVM. Most of the reasons Java dropped out of popularity no longer apply, and at this point it is an incredibly stable and mature ecosystem. I can come back to a Clojure program I wrote ten years ago and it runs great , meanwhile a TypeScript program I write 6 months ago requires a bunch of updating and cleanup.

I've been trying Java recently with IntelliJ and it's been funny watching Java's evolution from the IDE's suggestions. In Java a lot of code looks like this void foo(Bar bar); where Bar is an interface, and in many cases it only has one single method, so it looks like a callback that must be wrapped inside a class. Fortunately, Java lets you create anonymous classes to use these methods. void foo(new Bar { @override…

2 yes, although if you are splitting only one regular character the implementation doesn't use a Regen internally

3 is not an issue anymore since java 22 https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2024/02/constructor-makeover...

Re: Java 25 officially released

#132

Post by kccqzy »

Noe2097 wrote: post #90
cgh wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is hugely popular and widely used on large backend systems. I guess a lot of people here don't work on such systems? I'm always surprised when I see comments like the parent, since in my career exposure to Java is near-ubiquitous.

There has been a move in the past 8 years away from Java on the back end, notably to Go, by several large engineering organizations, which made the move, "motivated" by the example of companies like Google or by projects like Kubernetes, and seduced by the promises of a language simple to learn, build, and deploy.

Creators of Go within Google conveniently left out the fact that within Google there's still far more Java code than Go code.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#133

Post by TheFreim »

stevoski wrote: post #118
Onewildgamer wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java was thriving during the golden age of Eclipse Foundation and IDE. JetBrains is very much recent.

> JetBrains is very much recent. JetBrains is 25 years old, almost as old as Java.

Around 10 years ago Eclipse was still the primary editor in the circles I was in.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#134

Post by devgoth »

iLemming wrote: post #123
lukev wrote: post #39

More new programs should be written in Java/on the JVM. Most of the reasons Java dropped out of popularity no longer apply, and at this point it is an incredibly stable and mature ecosystem. I can come back to a Clojure program I wrote ten years ago and it runs great , meanwhile a TypeScript program I write 6 months ago requires a bunch of updating and cleanup.

> I can come back to a Clojure program I wrote ten years ago and it runs great Is that thanks to JVM or due to the way how Clojure works? Because I can share the same anecdotes for my Clojurescript projects. I can grab any old nbb script and things just work off the bat - sometimes I have to update some npm dependency, but most of the time, things simply aren't horribly broken. Meanwhile, I just spent half a day jump…

i think this is because of Clojure's mentality on backwards compatibility and not the JVM specifically. please someone correct me if im wrong tho!

Re: Java 25 officially released

#135

Post by karmakaze »

stevoski wrote: post #118
Onewildgamer wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java was thriving during the golden age of Eclipse Foundation and IDE. JetBrains is very much recent.

> JetBrains is very much recent. JetBrains is 25 years old, almost as old as Java.

I was using Eclipse back then, but indeed Wikipedia says IDEA 1.0 (Jan 2001) predates Eclipse IDE (Nov 2001).

NetBeans was bought by Sun in 1999 and opensourced on Jun 2000.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#136

Post by kccqzy »

iLemming wrote: post #123
lukev wrote: post #39

More new programs should be written in Java/on the JVM. Most of the reasons Java dropped out of popularity no longer apply, and at this point it is an incredibly stable and mature ecosystem. I can come back to a Clojure program I wrote ten years ago and it runs great , meanwhile a TypeScript program I write 6 months ago requires a bunch of updating and cleanup.

> I can come back to a Clojure program I wrote ten years ago and it runs great Is that thanks to JVM or due to the way how Clojure works? Because I can share the same anecdotes for my Clojurescript projects. I can grab any old nbb script and things just work off the bat - sometimes I have to update some npm dependency, but most of the time, things simply aren't horribly broken. Meanwhile, I just spent half a day jump…

It's not clear whether the author built the Clojure program into a jar or not. If so, it would be thanks to the JVM.

In any case, the dominant way people build Clojure has changed. Ten years ago it probably used lein. Nowadays a new project will probably use deps.edn.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#137

Post by HackerThemAll »

mrsmrtss wrote: post #127
GuB-42 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> C# is right there if I want a java-like experience without the anxiety of Oracle breaking my kneecaps. Is Microsoft really better than Oracle in that regard?

If we look at .NET vs Java, then yes, Microsoft is better. Microsoft may charge for some of its dev tools (Visual Studio etc), but .NET itself is and was always totally free.

And .NET is truly cross-platform for 11 years already (since .NET Core 3.0 was released). No licensing/patent/litigation issues since then.

Great GUI cross-platform GUI toolkit (MAUI), great WASM engine (Blazor).

Upcoming .NET 10 is going to be awesome.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#138

Post by mdaniel »

mrsmrtss wrote: post #127
GuB-42 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> C# is right there if I want a java-like experience without the anxiety of Oracle breaking my kneecaps. Is Microsoft really better than Oracle in that regard?

If we look at .NET vs Java, then yes, Microsoft is better. Microsoft may charge for some of its dev tools (Visual Studio etc), but .NET itself is and was always totally free.

I don't think "was always" is an accurate statement

However, above and beyond free, it is also a collection of ECMA standards https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/fundamentals/standa...

Now, don't get me wrong: I have grave suspicions there is currently only one actual implementation of them (I don't count hobby, or abandonware, ones) but IMHO "actual standard" combined with "for real reference implementation" is way better than just reference implementation

---

since I'm still within the edit window, the MAUI referenced by the sibling comment is MIT licensed https://github.com/dotnet/maui

https://github.com/dotnet/blazor (Apache 2) is marked an archived, and points to https://github.com/dotnet/aspnetcore (MIT) but command-f blazor on its readme is nothing so :shrug:

Re: Java 25 officially released

#139

Post by giobox »

waldarbeiter wrote: post #116
Decabytes wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My biggest Issue with Java, is that it isn't streamlined. There are multiple implementations of the jdk that could be used, Many different build systems, etc. The C# ecosystem is smaller for sure, but it is much more streamlined

The different JDK builds are almost all built from OpenJDK. Maven and Gradle cover nearly all use cases. The complexity is not that high.

I think it is quite high, especially for newcomers to the ecosystem. The popular sdkman CLI tool for managing JDK installations provides 17 different JDKs to install:

https://sdkman.io/jdks/

With the DotNet SDK for comparisons sake, there is but one provider, and package management is provided as first class citizen in the compiler CLI, removing the need to even pick a "gradle" or "maven" style build tool in the first place for almost any project.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#140

Post by HackerThemAll »

andrewl-hn wrote: post #124
Foomf wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oracle makes me too uneasy. Can I use Java without the worry of incurring Oracle's wrath? Maybe, if I make sure I use openjdk/jump through some hoops I'll be fine. Or, I could just use any other language and not have that worry looming over me. C# is right there if I want a java-like experience without the anxiety of Oracle breaking my kneecaps. I don't know how to use java and not violate one of Oracle's EULAs. I co…

My semi-conspiracy theory is that the success of Rust is partially due to BigTech companies searching for a "legally-safe" alternative to Java. The multi-year Google vs Oracle lawsuit put the likes of Amazon and Facebook to unease. And meanwhile there was this safe and performant language with no strings attached under a nice Apache license. They quickly made a Foundation around it as a 501(c)(6) - trade association,…

This conspiracy theory would explain not only success of Rust, but also Go language and C#/.NET, and any other Java competitor.

I'd say it's 90% because of Oracle and its lawyer-driven business, and 10% because the language is just ugly, and existing libraries are super-ugly and unreadable, with all these Factories and AbstractFactories, and all design patterns forced like a religion whether they're useful or not in a specific context.

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