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The elegance of movement in Silksong

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Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#131

Post by pharrington »

vunderba wrote: post #68
Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #49

> Silksong as a game should not exist. It is so brutally difficult that it stretches the very definition of the word "game". Games are supposed to be fun [...] I haven't actually played HK yet, and I don't normally play Souls-likes, but I did finally start playing Elden Ring about two months ago. Yes, I've had times where I'm cursing out loud because I've been trying to beat a boss for three hours without success, so…

> Silksong as a game should not exist. It is so brutally difficult that it stretches the very definition of the word "game". Games are supposed to be fun [...] I haven't played Silksong yet and I know difficulty is rather subjective, but is it really that difficult compared to the realm of punishing platformers like NES Ninja Gaiden, Cuphead, Spelunky 2, the dark world portions of Super Meat Boy, etc? I played the fi…

Silksong is infinitely more forgiving then Spelunky 2. The game just doesn't stop you from going into the harder areas of the map early in your playthrough.

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#132

Post by Scaevolus »

socalgal2 wrote: post #109
eviks wrote: post #61

Think the article makes a good distinction between games being hard because they're bugged and not designed well enough, so your expectations are broken and you're frustrated by how (game) life is unfair vs. a perfected design with precise match between your skill and results > movement is so finely tuned and so precise that I know deep in my bones that any hit or death is entirely on me. Of course, that in turn make…

How is this different than a game like Sega Genesis Contra Hard Corps? (Asking with genine curiousity). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzJyBQKDaeQ In that game, it's basically ~30 boss fights in a row (don't know the exact number). There are 4 paths through the game A->(B or C)->D->(E or F). So if you take path B you fight different bosses than path C. Same for E and F. One of those last paths has 2 endings with one…

The player controller in that Contra game is extremely simple. Movement snaps and stops instantly, and the animation are simple. You stand, run left or right at a constant velocity, jump, and shoot in one of 5 directions.

Giving your character more movement possibilities tickles the brain with the complexity, enables more fluid and aesthetic movements on the screen, and increases the possible difficulty of platforming sections and boss fights.

Silksong has a very complex movement controller. The player has mass, can grab edges and climb up, and unlocks additional abilities as they play. Now they can dash, run, doing a running jump, wall jump, stall a fall with a float, and more. Attacks come in many flavors, with different styles enabling attacks of different speeds and distances and strengths, with different considerations to manage.

More complex controls take more investment for players to learn and are more rewarding. An extreme example of this is found in games like Monster Hunter, where each of a dozen different weapons controls very differently and takes many hours to become proficient in.

Elden Ring does not have an excessively complex movement system. You walk, run, jump, dodge, and have a handful of fast and slow attacks for a given weapon. It finds success through incredible world and level design and its difficult and rewarding bosses. The game loop is exploration, fighting difficult foes, and slowly growing stronger-- both through game mechanics of gear and stats, and through personal mastery of combat.

Soulslike games revolve around players gambling directly with arbitrary amounts of time-- when you die you drop your money, and if you die again before reaching that grave it's gone permanently. They make you bid the only resource that you care about: your hard-won progress over time.

Complexity and stakes deepen the intellectual and emotional enjoyment of a game.

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#133

Post by archagon »

vunderba wrote: post #68
Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #49

> Silksong as a game should not exist. It is so brutally difficult that it stretches the very definition of the word "game". Games are supposed to be fun [...] I haven't actually played HK yet, and I don't normally play Souls-likes, but I did finally start playing Elden Ring about two months ago. Yes, I've had times where I'm cursing out loud because I've been trying to beat a boss for three hours without success, so…

> Silksong as a game should not exist. It is so brutally difficult that it stretches the very definition of the word "game". Games are supposed to be fun [...] I haven't played Silksong yet and I know difficulty is rather subjective, but is it really that difficult compared to the realm of punishing platformers like NES Ninja Gaiden, Cuphead, Spelunky 2, the dark world portions of Super Meat Boy, etc? I played the fi…

I think my hardest gaming achievements have been Pantheon of Hallownest, Malenia in Elden Ring, and 106% Super Meat Boy. Silksong is nowhere near as hard as any of those… but I think I’m about 2/3 of the way through, so who knows what’s in store for the true endgame.

Have yet to run into a truly brutal boss like the last few Pantheon participants in HK.

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#134

Post by samrus »

I disagree with the author saying silksong breaks the definition of a game because what it offers is challenge instead of "fun"

Thats like saying shawshank redemption isnt really a movie because its not fun like the original charlie chaplain films

I think the vast majority of games are meant to be digital toys, the way early movies were mostly cheap entertainment. But just like movies evolved as an art and artists began to become more comfortable with the medium, games will also become more artistic and less like toys.

The interactive nature of games is so innovative in the art world that it hasnt really caught on how to use it. But its evolving. Dark souls, the spiritual ancestor to silksong and pther soulslikes, is harder and that was a response to games like call of duty which felt like they were just trying to get the player through the level with as little friction as possible, with the pakyers actions being an inconvenience the game has to overcome so as to give them their dopamine hit. Dark souls responded to that by respecting the player and trusting them with a challenge they can be proud of solving.

This idea of one peice responding to another is exactly how art works. And the fact that the interactivity of the medium is what is being played with in these peices is a sign that we are moving towards art evolving to embrace interactivity like it did video

Another example is DDLC. That game did amazing things with making the narrative meta that non interactive media simply cant do. A character in a movie turning to face tue camera and addressing the viewer is trippy for sure, but a character telling you your steam username is way fucking trippier, and sells the meta aspect way better

Games arent just toys, they can be art. Art just hasnt evolved enough yet, but its on its way

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#135

Post by jiggawatts »

fishtoaster wrote: post #4

> Selling to businesses is very easy. You go to a business and you say "hey, you like making money?" And the business will say "why yes, I do like making money" and you will say "great, I can help you make more money. This is so wrong it hurts. You'd be amazed at how often "I will save you $X, guaranteed, or your money back" is a non-starter when selling to companies. I've spent a career very slowly gaining respect f…

I've been watching this process with a keen eye as a technical consultant, and one thing I've learnt is that naive models of large organisations as Profit=Revenue-Costs is totally inadequate for enterprise sales. Yes, it is true that saving money anywhere will improve profits, but you can only sell that to an individual who's personal KPI needles move because of this! If the cost is in dept X but the profit is recorded in dept Y, then don't bother. You won't get a sale, even if it's tens of millions of dollars of saved costs or increased revenue. At best, you can find their common manager and try to sell it to that person, but even that has pits of failure you can all too easily fall into.

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#136

Post by glimshe »

I won't play action games without an easy mode anymore. I've beaten all Dark Souls games and I just got tired of proving myself over and over. Nowadays I just want mild challenge and the certainty I will win after trying a couple of times.

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#137

Post by djtango »

Muromec wrote: post #124
djtango wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first play through of Elden Ring was a pseudo challenge run - capped at 125RL (pvp meta) and dual UGS style. No ash of war usage. No guides for bosses. Malenia took me over a month, and probably over 500 deaths and I had to relax the ash of war usage (still limited by my very low FP) The entire end game was brutal as this was before the buff for UGS animation speeds and most boss openings were shorter than anythin…

>One meta lesson I like about Souls is it provides a safe environment to learn what performing under pressure is like They used to give you unlimited time to deal with difficulty and always gave the alternative of rolling back and getting more levels. That's until Nightreign -- you are almost always under time pressure. Forget Malenia -- everdark Libra is the current standard of the most diabolical Souls experience.…

Still not tried Nightreign - might have to take a look!

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#138

Post by pferde »

ianbutler wrote: post #116
viraptor wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there actually long runbacks in Silksong? I'm not that far in, but so far they've all been maybe 2 screens long at most which you can cross really quickly.

There are several runbacks that are quite painful. I'm on the last bit of the game now and while I've overall very much enjoyed it there's more than a few spots where I thought "this is just tedious".

A great motivation to get it right this time. :)

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#139

Post by djtango »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #101
djtango wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first play through of Elden Ring was a pseudo challenge run - capped at 125RL (pvp meta) and dual UGS style. No ash of war usage. No guides for bosses. Malenia took me over a month, and probably over 500 deaths and I had to relax the ash of war usage (still limited by my very low FP) The entire end game was brutal as this was before the buff for UGS animation speeds and most boss openings were shorter than anythin…

I somehow missed Malenia. I'm level 125 (not doing the PVP meta, just happen to be this level) and was pounding my face against Radagon and the Elden Beast. I downed Radagon on my first attempt, then after like 10 more tries couldn't get him again. I avoided reading the Elden Ring wiki as much as possible. I decided to open it up and found how to get to Malenia, so I'll be fighting my way over there and gaining a few…

I recently learned that Margit has a "feint" that is actually a stance - that's why his wind up feels like it takes forever.

I was interested to find out that Margit is one of the most technically fun and difficult fights to nohit run because his flow chart is actually the most complex of all the bosses. But most players can brute force their way through him.

Malenia was a lot of fun, especially without summons

Re: The elegance of movement in Silksong

#140

Post by j_maffe »

glimshe wrote: post #136

I won't play action games without an easy mode anymore. I've beaten all Dark Souls games and I just got tired of proving myself over and over. Nowadays I just want mild challenge and the certainty I will win after trying a couple of times.

I agree. The game got much more fun once I installed some nice QoL and damage reduction mods.
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