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We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

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Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#131

Post by mlinhares »

card_zero wrote: post #123
mlinhares wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, there's no increase in disorder, crime in most developed countries is trending down, but we do have a bunch of people that have collected unimaginable wealth and are definitely afraid something will happen to them like the last couple times this has happened. They definitely don't want to repeat history and will use the coercion tools they have to clamp down on the peasants.

> afraid something will happen to them Because of what, the decrease in crime?

Who knows, you'll have to go to their leaked private chats to see the madness they're conjuring there.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#132

Post by slowhadoken »

gruez wrote: post #29

There was a comment that appeared for a few minutes before getting deleted, that vaguely lined up with what I wanted to say. It didn't reappear, so I'll just repost it: >real life also has social credit. were you an asshole to the bartender last week? that goes to your reputation at that bar. did you volunteer with a local non-profit? that goes to your reputation with that organization. even without an algorithm, peo…

That’s a subjective mess. How do you objectively weight the value of those experiences? It also won’t stop gossip, PR, and propaganda. Just look at the state of Rotten Tomatoes. Now imagine Fandango buying your social credit website and making Harvey Weinstein a 10/10 good person.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#133

Post by corimaith »

docdeek wrote: post #4
NitpickLawyer wrote: post #2

Interesting article. On the one hand, it provides insides into how the project actually worked in china, which I didn't know. That's interesting. But it misses a huge nuance on the whole "dystopian" thing. The main thing about "social score bad" takes is that the government will use that scoring. It's not private private. Everything the author mentions about the various scoring in the US (and EU for that matter, alth…

This was similar to my take. What's dystopian about how the Chinese system was/is/was rumored to be was that it was the government doing the tracking and scoring.

Which ends up harsher than what private entities do as a form of moralistic restrictions than are dubiously related to one's ability to pay back loans. I don't see how barring one from using long distance travel is going to help them better pay back loans beyond punitive punishment.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#134

Post by [deleted] »

mlinhares wrote: post #118
card_zero wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, automation and information sharing prevents people slipping through the cracks, and that also prevents leniency, diversity, and reason. I was musing over something, though. We have creeping Orwellian things like face recognition and the policing of chat histories. But some of this is private, as in, not done by the state. Even when done by the state, it isn't in most places to prop up the regime and prevent dis…

Nah, there's no increase in disorder, crime in most developed countries is trending down, but we do have a bunch of people that have collected unimaginable wealth and are definitely afraid something will happen to them like the last couple times this has happened. They definitely don't want to repeat history and will use the coercion tools they have to clamp down on the peasants.

[deleted]

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#135

Post by throwawayq3423 »

darthoctopus wrote: post #94
gowld wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are conflating "social credit score", which hasn't been built out in China (although blacklisting, imprisonment, and torture for wrongthink has been built out), with "financial credit score" which exists in USA via private companies working togther, and "credit reports" which exist in both USA and China. China's is run by the unelected, dictatorial government.

perhaps read the actual first paragraph of the article? the whole point of it is that, whether we call it that or not, our privately run reputation scores (including but not limited to credit scores) functionally are social credit scores --- except we've been boiled frogs, and should take some time for self-reflection before engaging in knee-jerk reactions to China's other failings (which I'm not denying btw) wheneve…

Your credit score in America will never be used to deny your freedom of movement within America or go against you or any of your family members when applying for higher education.

It is a fundamentally flawed comparison.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#136

Post by corimaith »

tecleandor wrote: post #75
YcYc10 wrote: post #44

Amazon? Who cares. Air BnB? Not really an issue unless you trash a place. Same with Uber. Instagram? Please.

You don't care until the corporation is big enough or starts crossing information with enough companies. Amazon already owns healthcare companies. Facebook has shared more information than we can think about with all sort of parties. One day you'll be denied care or your insurance premiums will quadruple because you buy too much sweets in Amazon, or because you once said you fell off a chair while drunk in a party in…

Then we'll vote in legislation to break up Amazon. You're assuming the hypothetical worst case in capitalism, but applying the same to the government it's going to be a far more difficult situation if the government is doing the same.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#137

Post by yachad »

graemep wrote: post #101
Bukhmanizer wrote: post #92

The issue is that American media/discourse paints a very distorted view of what life under authoritarian rule is like. The truth is in many countries, unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west. But people don’t want to hear that, because we want to feel better than them. Like we wouldn’t tolerate that kind of life. Of course the…

Not entirely true. People living authoritarian worry about what they say, they self-censor out of fear, they defer to those in power (even at a local level), they accept a hierarchy of power rather than rights. I do not entirely disagree without, but lack of freedom does intrude into day to day life to some extent.

Even if you live in a western country you do all of that anyway. Self-censor at work and online so I don’t get fired or banned from w/e.

Accept elected officials whose policies don’t match up with popular opinion and accept standard employment hierarchy.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#138

Post by AnimalMuppet »

throwawayq3423 wrote: post #135
darthoctopus wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

perhaps read the actual first paragraph of the article? the whole point of it is that, whether we call it that or not, our privately run reputation scores (including but not limited to credit scores) functionally are social credit scores --- except we've been boiled frogs, and should take some time for self-reflection before engaging in knee-jerk reactions to China's other failings (which I'm not denying btw) wheneve…

Your credit score in America will never be used to deny your freedom of movement within America or go against you or any of your family members when applying for higher education. It is a fundamentally flawed comparison.

It might be used to deny your kid a college loan, though - which might work out the same as denying them higher education.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#139

Post by drnick1 »

pipo234 wrote: post #97
drnick1 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I categorically refuse to install non-FOSS apps on my phone. I don't use social media, and refuse to use Uber for various reasons (including those explained in this article). I do buy things on Amazon, but only those that are physically delivered to my door (rather than "subscriptions" aka buying things that you won't own).

How about banking apps? In my part of Europe a growing number of banks require installing an app via Google or Apple story. The Android ones are known to use sdks that at full of "telemetry". Cash is no longer an alternative.

Can you not use a browser to access banking services? If not, you should vehemently complain and/or move to another bank. And while cash is better for privacy, you can always use a credit card instead of your phone.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#140

Post by marcosdumay »

aezart wrote: post #6
NitpickLawyer wrote: post #2

Interesting article. On the one hand, it provides insides into how the project actually worked in china, which I didn't know. That's interesting. But it misses a huge nuance on the whole "dystopian" thing. The main thing about "social score bad" takes is that the government will use that scoring. It's not private private. Everything the author mentions about the various scoring in the US (and EU for that matter, alth…

The government staying out of it makes it worse . The companies have so much power over your life without any oversight.

> The government staying out of it makes it worse.

That's because all that power turns the companies into paragovernamental organizations. Anything with the power to gatekeep human rights is a government.

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