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The Folk Economics of Housing

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Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not new affordable housing, but the people moving in to the new expensive houses are leaving their old houses, and the people who buy those are leaving their old houses, so eventually the price drops happen on the older, smaller homes at the bottom end of the market. I keep seeing this, but if the housing being vacated is in a different, less-desirable market, it's a bit tree-falling-in-the-woods for locals. I…

This analogy seems confused. If someone in Chicago moves to Seattle, then our policy options are (1) no new condo in Seattle or (2) new condo in Seattle. Under policy 1, the new buyer from Chicago must outbid locals for the fixed housing supply; they will wind up buying older housing stock, which otherwise would have gone to existing local residents. Prices go up. With policy 2, the new entrant buys the new condo and…

> The entire question can be contained by the assumption that "there is someone new coming to Seattle" and whether it would be better to have a new condo unit to sell to them or have them compete for existing fixed stock. The whole bit about the Chicago housing market is a distractor, because it stays the same under either policy.

Are you denying that induced demand is a thing for housing? That everyone who wants to move to Seattle will move there regardless of housing prices, and no one will leave because they get squeezed out of the housing market by new arrivals? Or is there a more nuanced argument that I'm missing?

That new condo allows one more family to live in Seattle regardless, whereas if they were competing with existing stock, some family would probably have to leave. We could play a few rounds of musical chairs to prove that fact.

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so you are suggesting that one house is better than two to alleviate supply? this is exactly why market incentives isn't the cure. we would have more housing if we built more housing. if we built double the housing, then we would be in an even better place. this logic makes zero sense to me.

> so you are suggesting that one house is better than two to alleviate supply? No, they are saying that building one high-end house still has the slightly unintuitive effect of increasing the supply of low-end homes. They also give their reasons for believing this.

i'm very aware of how filtering works in the housing market. but if your goal is to increase supply, then 2 > 1. therefore, in my opinion, filtering due to market mechanics and developer incentives is not the most optimal or efficient solution.

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#134
post #17

If you could build houses for free then obviously adding supply would eventually reduce the price. But I have been looking at the cost to build a home, it costs even more to build than to buy a used one. Who, exactly, is going to be able to afford to buy the new houses while selling their current home at a lower price than it would currently fetch? Maybe if AI replaces all the software developers they can flood the h…

I genuinely want to see a breakdown on what is increasing building costs so much. Houses are not more complicated than they were 15 years ago. Normally if you make essentially the same product for 15 years, production costs fall.

> I genuinely want to see a breakdown on what is increasing building costs so much.

It is just general demand, really. Every step of the way can charge more, as compared to 15 years ago, because people are willing to pay more for their services.

Like the headline suggest, the solution is to increase supply. Except, not of houses, but the inputs that go into houses (materials, labor, etc.). Until supply is met there, the cost to build cannot come down, and until the cost to build can come down used homes cannot come down either. Alternatively, we could stop wanting so many houses, but that is likely less practical.

As mentioned, if you get all the software developers building houses instead the price would drop pretty quickly. But... good luck convincing them to do that. That is what has to be overcome.

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#135

While housing remains a great investment for rich people, I doubt anything else will make any difference. If you build houses, they’ll just buy them and rent them out for profit.

"They will just buy them and rent them out" you have described investment. Funding the construction of houses using your capital and then letting them out to people without as much capital is how housing gets created. Just let it work! Let a guy build a house and rent it to someone.

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except those firms currently have enough money to lobby politicians to oppose any changes that would meaningfully increase supply, and also hold outsized stakes in the companies and suppliers who would build said stock. It’s a rigged game top to bottom. A free market would’ve fixed this years ago, but this is not a free market anymore. The difference is I advocate control of necessity markets returning to government…

Do you realize your argument boils down to “increasing supply doesn’t reduce housing cost because we don’t increase the supply”?

Yes, because unlike every single detractor here I’m not distilling a complex argument full of nuance into a “1+1=2” baby-splaining session.

Let me put it into simple numbers the detractors can understand:

I build ten homes in a market that needs a hundred. I price them affordably because I’m not an asshole and understand there’s a crisis.

* Statistically speaking, 25% of those homes will be bought by PE or REITs. I cannot deny them the sale because the law says so. Let’s round that up to three homes out of ten. Those homes may be rented out at market rate rent, which is far higher than the mortgage would have been, which doesn’t reduce pricing or improve supply - rent remains high because these groups have data to keep rent that high, and supply remains constrained because a fourth of my inventory just got sold to profiteers instead of people.

* Of the remaining seven homes, all are likely sold to actual people. Due to bidding wars and my obligations to shareholders however, I have to take the highest bids. Because of anti-discrimination laws, I can’t sell to underserved minority groups because that’s considered discrimination. So a plurality of owners will be higher net worth individuals, many of whom likely already own property.

* Because we’re in a housing crisis and everyone wants money for doing nothing, it’s likely that about half of the new homeowners won’t outright sell their existing home, but instead rent it out at or near market rates set by PE/REITs. They want that cash after all, and know there’s a lack of supply. Because their old homes aren’t being added to the market for sale, this doesn’t apply negative pressure on housing prices since a home for rent is not a home for sale

* So now we have just three homebuyers left who bought their only home, aren’t renting it out, didn’t have prior equity, and almost certainly overpaid for what was on offer. This places them in a precarious environment where a job loss could lead to eviction or having to sell the home - but because they’re in the midst of a crisis, they can likely get a quick cash offer from a PE/REIT without actually putting the home on the market, making their problems disappear and putting them back as renters. Maybe one to two homeowners are affected by this.

So out of ten homes built, only three go to people not already on the property ladder in some form, and of which as many as five are likely to end up in the hands of an investor at some point anyway. Ten homes for a net gain of five purchasable properties is not a meaningful increase because the market, government, and tax incentives value less supply and more demand.

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#137
Housing costs mostly boil down to this stack:

price of land + price of materials + cost of labor + margin + other (marketing, admin, fees, financing, etc.)

When you try to boost the number of homes, you also boost demand for construction labor, materials, and buildable land. Those inputs tend to rise or at least not fall much, so there isn’t a big, easy savings there. That leaves soft "other" costs or developer margin. Other is a relatively small slice, and typical margins aren’t huge push them too low and projects stop penciling, so fewer homes get built.

Even if margins were squeezed, the price drop would usually be too small to bridge the affordability gap for most households.

The bigger issue is that household incomes haven’t kept pace with housing prices over the last few decades.

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#138
post #6

I can sort of understand that. They’ve been building houses in my area non-stop since 2010 or so. Prices haven’t gone down. There are other factors than supply. But most of the new supply is large houses. If you don’t want 4+ bedrooms and a 2000+ sq. ft. house the supply hasn’t changed much at all.

OK, that's an interesting point. There's not "the housing market". There are several markets, with some overlap. The market for starter homes is not filled by building 4+ bedrooms, still less the market for studio apartments. And my impression is that, when we talk about the housing shortage, we're talking about apartments to starter homes, not about 4+ bedrooms. So what we seem to have is a disconnect between what t…

I’m sure it’s not zero that are being built. But it doesn’t seem like a very high number, at least compared to the number of large homes being built in new subdivisions.

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#139
post #8

Is it that they truly don’t believe it or they don’t want more supply (since that changes their quality of life, neighborhoods, traffic, etc) but still do want lower prices in other ways (like by price caps or other things). One legitimate reason to not think supply reduces prices is because of big financial companies buying up lots of houses and having effectively free rein to price how they want. It removes the com…

This is another huge myth in the US housing market, that big companies own lots of the housing and are jacking the prices up. It's simply not true. Large corporations own a tiny fraction of the market while the vast majority is owned by individuals and small landlords.

That is not limited to the US, in Berlin there was a popular vote to expropriate housing companies with more than 3000 units.

Yet those large housing companies charge on average between 7-8 €/m² and are nowhere near to holding a majority of the housing share.

Re: The Folk Economics of Housing

#140

I think that what contributes to this view is that new construction always seems to be at the high end of the market. This makes sense, it doesn't cost the builder a lot more to build a $500k house than to build a $250k house, and building two $250k houses will take twice the time and close to twice the costs. So builders/developers are going to build what is most profitable, which is the most expensive houses that t…

> What is less obvious is that this still increase housing supply. It's not new affordable housing, but the people moving in to the new expensive houses are leaving their old houses, and the people who buy those are leaving their old houses, so eventually the price drops happen on the older, smaller homes at the bottom end of the market. Two things to think about when making this argument: * Older housing could have…

> Demand is induced by new supply. We accept this as a fact for highway construction.

Induced demand is only a thing with highways because use of the highways is free; there's no counterveiling cost pressure unless and until traffic jams start forming. By definition induced demand doesn't exist where the market can set prices for using newly created resources.

Closer to your point (if we stretch really hard) would be something like lowering crime. If Seattle successfully lowers crime without, say, increasing taxes, then Seattle becomes a nicer place to live, and people can (and will) move there to enjoy lower crime without having to directly incur the cost of lowering that crime. One of the externalities of that "induced demand" would be an increase in housing prices. So obviously Seattleites who oppose residential development should just promote more crime.

The fundamental issue here is that people don't like being subject to market forces and the insecurity that engenders, particularly when it comes to housing and labor. That's understandable. They do like market forces when they get to enjoy lower prices, though. But the feeling of insecurity is particularly acute when it comes to housing and the issue of new development. That's also understandable, notwithstanding that it's simply irrational and empirically disproven that NIMBYism makes for lower prices than the alternative of allowing market development. You get higher prices with NIMBYism than YIMBYism, period; though there's simply no guaranteeing that absolute prices will come down, especially for a city that permits development where others don't. That's a collective action/free-rider problem, where the positive externalities of good public policies of one community are captured in part by other, cheating groups.

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