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Why are there so many rationalist cults?

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Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#131

Post by rpcope1 »

bobson381 wrote: post #96
JohnMakin wrote: post #85

One of a few issues I have with groups like these, is that they often confidently and aggressively spew a set of beliefs that on their face logically follow from one another, until you realize they are built on a set of axioms that are either entirely untested or outright nonsense. This is common everywhere, but I feel especially pronounced in communities like this. It also involves quite a bit of navel gazing that m…

There should be an extremist cult of people who are certain only that uncertainty is the only certain thing

More people should read Sextus Empiricus as he's basically the O.G. Phyrronist skeptic and goes pretty hard on this very train of thought.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#132

Post by saghm »

reactordev wrote: post #46
SirFatty wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Came to ask a similar question, but also has it always been like this? The difference is now these people/groups on the fringe had no visibility before the internet? It's nuts.

It’s always been like this, have you read the Bible? Or the Koran? It’s insane. Ours is just our flavor of crazy. Every generation has some. When you dig at it, there’s always a religion.

Without speaking for religions I'm not familiar with, I grew up Catholic, and one of the most important Catholic beliefs is that during Mass, the bread (i.e. "communion" wafers) and wine quite literally transform into the body and blood of Jesus, and that eating and drinking it is a necessary ritual to get into heaven[1], which was a source of controversy even back as far as the Protestant Reformation, with some sects retaining that doctrine and others abandoning it. In a lot of ways, what's considered "normal" or "crazy" in a religion comes to what you're familiar with.

For those not familiar with the bible enough to know what to look for to find the wild stuff, look up the story of Elisha summoning bears out of the first to maul children for calling him bald, or the last two chapters of Daniel (which I think are only in the Catholic bible) where he literally blows up a dragon by feeding it a cake.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_presence_of_Christ_in_the...

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#133

Post by StevenWaterman »

dfabulich wrote: post #82

The whole game of Rationalism is that you should ignore gut intuitions and cultural norms that you can't justify with rational arguments. Well, it turns out that intuition and long-lived cultural norms often have rational justifications, but individuals may not know what they are, and norms/intuitions provide useful antibodies against narcissist would-be cult leaders. Can you find the "rational" justification not to…

Yeah, I think this is exactly it. If something sounds extremely stupid, or if everyone around you says it's extremely stupid, it probably is. If you can't justify it, it's probably because you have failed to find the reason it's stupid, not because it's actually genius.

And the crazy thing is, none of that is fundamentally opposed to rationalism. You can be a rationalist who ascribes value to gut instinct and societal norms. Those are the product of millions of years of pre-training.

I have spent a fair bit of time thinking about the meaning of life. And my conclusions have been pretty crazy. But they sound insane, so until I figure out why they sound insane, I'm not acting on those conclusions. And I'm definitely not surrounding myself with people who take those conclusions seriously.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#134

Post by handoflixue »

nyeah wrote: post #117
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest I don't understand that objection. If you strip it from all its culty sociological effects, one of the original ideas of rationalism was to try to use logical reasoning and statistical techniques to explicitly avoid the pitfalls of known cognitive biases. Given that foundational tenet, "rationalism" seems like an extremely appropriate moniker. I fully accept that the rationalist community may have morphe…

I'm going to start a group called "Mentally Healthy People". We use data, logical thinking, and informal peer review. If you disagree with us, our first question will be "what's wrong with mental health?"

So... Psychiatry? Do you think psychiatrists are particularly prone to starting cults? Do you think learning about psychiatry makes you at risk for cult-like behavior?

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#135

Post by sunshowers »

nathan_compton wrote: post #12

Thinking too hard about anything will drive you insane but I think the real issue here is that rationalists simply over-estimate both the power of rational thought and their ability to do it. If you think of people who tend to make that kind of mistake you can see how you get a lot of crazy groups. I guess I'm a radical skeptic, secular humanist, utilitarianish sort of guy, but I'm not dumb enough to think throwing a…

I don't disagree, but to steelman the case for (neo)rationalism: one of its fundamental contributions is that Bayes' theorem is extraordinarily important as a guide to reality, perhaps at the same level as the second law of thermodynamics; and that it is dramatically undervalued by larger society. I think that is all basically correct.

(I call it neorationalism because it is philosophically unrelated to the more traditional rationalism of Spinoza and Descartes.)

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#136

Post by BryantD »

Nihilartikel wrote: post #86
mlinhares wrote: post #4

> One is Black Lotus, a Burning Man camp led by alleged rapist Brent Dill, which developed a metaphysical system based on the tabletop roleplaying game Mage the Ascension. What the actual f. This is such an insane thing to read and understand what it means that i might need to go and sit in silence for the rest of the day. How did we get to this place with people going completely nuts like this?

I'm entertaining sending my kiddo to a Waldorf School, because it genuinely seems pretty good. But looking into the underlying Western Esoteric Spirit Science, 'Anthroposophy' (because Theosophy wouldn't let him get weird enough) by Rudolph Steiner, has been quite a ride. The point being that.. humans have a pretty endless capacity to go ALL IN on REALLY WEIRD shit, as long as it promises to fix their lives if they d…

I went to a Waldorf school and I’d recommend being really wary. The woo is sort of background noise, and if you’ve raised your kid well they’ll be fine. But the quality of the academics may not be good at all. For example, when I was ready for calculus my school didn’t have anyone who knew how to teach it so they stuck me and the other bright kid in a classroom with a textbook and told us to figure it out. As a side effect of not being challenged, I didn’t have good study habits going into college, which hurt me a lot.

If you’re talking about grade school, interview whoever is gonna be your kids teacher for the next X years and make sure they seem sane. If you’re talking about high school, give a really critical look at the class schedule.

Waldorf schools can vary a lot in this regard so you may not encounter the same problems I did, but it’s good to be cautious.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#137

Post by glenstein »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #77
optimalsolver wrote: post #3

Pertinent Twitter comment: "Rationalism is such an insane name for a school of thought. Like calling your ideology correctism or winsargumentism" https://x.com/growing_daniel/status/1893554844725616666

To be honest I don't understand that objection. If you strip it from all its culty sociological effects, one of the original ideas of rationalism was to try to use logical reasoning and statistical techniques to explicitly avoid the pitfalls of known cognitive biases. Given that foundational tenet, "rationalism" seems like an extremely appropriate moniker. I fully accept that the rationalist community may have morphe…

Right and to your point, I would say you can distinguish (1) "objective" in the sense of relying on mind-independent data from (2) absolute knowledge, which treats subjects like closed conversations. And you can make similar caveats for "rational".

You can be rational and objective about a given topic without it meaning that the conversation is closed, or that all knowledge has been found. So I'm certainly not a fan of cult dynamics, but I think it's easy to throw an unfair charge at these groups, that their interest in the topic necessitates an absolutist disposition.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#138

Post by robertlagrant »

saghm wrote: post #132
reactordev wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s always been like this, have you read the Bible? Or the Koran? It’s insane. Ours is just our flavor of crazy. Every generation has some. When you dig at it, there’s always a religion.

Without speaking for religions I'm not familiar with, I grew up Catholic, and one of the most important Catholic beliefs is that during Mass, the bread (i.e. "communion" wafers) and wine quite literally transform into the body and blood of Jesus, and that eating and drinking it is a necessary ritual to get into heaven[1], which was a source of controversy even back as far as the Protestant Reformation, with some sect…

Yes, Catholicism has definitely accumulated some cruft :)

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#139

Post by digbybk »

When I was looking for a group in my area to meditate with, it was tough finding one that didn't appear to be a cult. And yet I think Buddhist meditation is the best tool for personal growth humanity has ever devised. Maybe the proliferation of cults is a sign that Yudkowsky was on to something.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#140

Post by nyeah »

handoflixue wrote: post #134
nyeah wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to start a group called "Mentally Healthy People". We use data, logical thinking, and informal peer review. If you disagree with us, our first question will be "what's wrong with mental health?"

So... Psychiatry? Do you think psychiatrists are particularly prone to starting cults? Do you think learning about psychiatry makes you at risk for cult-like behavior?

No. I have no beef with psychology or psychiatry. They're doing good work as far as I can tell. I am poking fun at people who take "rationality" and turn it into a brand name.
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