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New executive order puts all grants under political control

arstechnica.com

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Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#131

Post by watwut »

mindslight wrote: post #57
intermerda wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paul Graham? Pretty sure he was anti-Trump before the last election. But I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s one of those “enlightened centrists.”

Maybe I've unfairly judged him. Last I remember seeing was some pearl clutching about how Trump/Musk needed to "be careful" with what DOGE cut or something. I took that assumption of good faith as an indication of being in the reality distortion field, like too many other VCs are.

That would be "enlightened centrists". You know having that thing where you do not condone apparent nonsense, but you will really really go far out of your way to sane wash and give absurd benefits of the doubt - but only to "the side you totally are not supporting no".

The opponents of "the side you totally are not supporting no" wont get any benefits of doubt, will have words super scrutinized and instead sanewashed will be exaggerated.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#132

Post by wat10000 »

antonvs wrote: post #109
wat10000 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money should make them less vulnerable. They can lose their job, be blacklisted, whatever, and still be fine. Not like the ordinary person where this would mean homelessness. If they’re vulnerable, it’s the psychological need to keep adding to their pile of money that does it.

That’s not quite right. An administration like Trump’s can destroy people and companies if they really want to, and that’s the threat they’re using to get their way. Openly defying that is taking a big risk - for the targets, it’s not about “adding to their pile of money”, it’s about not losing much of what they have. Keep in mind that “money” is not some sort of concrete thing like a pile of gold - it’s dependent on…

They could lose 90% of what they have and still be comfortable for the rest of their life.

And the only reason their money depends on factors like the value of companies is because they want to add to the pile. It could literally be a pile of gold if they wanted it to be, that's just not the best way to make it grow. More realistically, it could be invested in index funds or something similar that the administration can't selectively destroy.

Worst case the government finds a way to confiscate everything, or imprison/kill them, in which case they're exactly as vulnerable as a normal person.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#133

Post by threatofrain »

jjav wrote: post #114
BrenBarn wrote: post #107

If an executive order can put grants under political control, they were already under political control. We just didn't know it. That is the case with so much of what is happening now. If these things are possible, the system was already broken.

In software terms, there has been a vulnerability in the constitution all along, it just had not been exploited until now. The three branches of government are supposed to be checks and balances against each other. But turns out two of the three don't have any actual power to enforce their mandates. This has worked as long as the three branches grudgingly respected each others role. But now that the executive branch…

The GOP has majority in the Supreme Court and in Congress. It's not like there's a conflict of power. There's no disagreement going on.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#134

Post by astrange »

themafia wrote: post #77
defrost wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they didn't. An Australian nuclear scientist working for the UK Rutherford (New Zealander) labs | Tube Alloys | MAUD program told them how to. It took a while to convince the US scientists who were mainly interested in making big hot piles for power. The actual building of atomic weapons (Trinity, Fat Man and Little Boy) took place under a fully authoritarian ultra secret State directed militarily controlled prog…

The jingoist dream of America is falling apart. It must seem, to some who are very dependent on it existing, as if the sky actually is falling. Perhaps it's just a good opportunity for them to study history that has been untouched by North American propaganda. Anyways, we have the Internet, I'm not sure it matters _where_ innovations are created anymore. It certainly does not seem to be stopping China on any level. A…

You're asking for sea shipping to stop working because naval piracy is going to come back. The "military industrial complex" isn't real and isn't a significant part of the economy (military spending as % US GDP has continually fallen over time), but the Navy patrolling the entire world's oceans for free has been real until now.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#135

Post by jacquesm »

thrown-0825 wrote: post #128
panarchy wrote: post #8

There's a reason the Americans discovered how to make atomic weapons first and it's because their researchers were living under a less oppressive state that wasn't motivated by anti-intellectualism and dumb ideology.

This is propaganda. The Manhattan project succeeded because it was consuming a significant portion of the US GDP at the time, the scientists were forced to live on site with their families and every word they said was monitored.

Projects such as these consume large sums of money no matter who funds them. But the scientists that worked on it were not forced to work on it, a large number of them were refugees from exactly the kind of regime that the OP contrasts the United States with, which at the time, side-by-side would definitely be favorable for the US.

Military projects, especially making the most powerful weapon in history for use in the largest war up to that point, are always done with as much secrecy as is feasible. Living on-site was also practical: the reason the site was as isolated as it was was in part because of secrecy, the families being there was both to improve security and for convenience. Finally, yes, every word they said was monitored. But they were scientists and their families working on top secret machinery of war, which ended up changing the course of history in a significant way, they quite literally ushered in a new age. They knew they were monitored and that this was one part of the price to pay for working on that project.

In contrast with that age: now all our words are monitored, even inane ones that are exchanged between people who would have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#136

Post by archagon »

bananapub wrote: post #104

it truly is astonishing how idiotic or malicious so many of the posters on HN are in the face of this. yes, actually, it is bad if a bunch of racist lunatics are personally in charge of things, and increase their personal power to make arbitrary decisions based on their stupid hobby horses or deeply dumb opinions. yes, actually, this is different to when Biden or Obama or Bush presided over a functioning government,…

[flagged]

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#137

Post by jacquesm »

igor47 wrote: post #106
pokstad wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well then maybe it is easier to let someone else do the heavy lifting first

This is complete moral bankruptcy. You're saying it would be better, rather than developing excellency, to instead become a parasite. I understand that in a world where winning is all that matters, this might be a viable strategy... For a while, until everyone adopts it or you otherwise kill your host. But this is not what being a human is about. I wouldn't want you near anything I care about

Moral bankruptcy is probably a bridge too far here: in weapons, especially with weapons of such power, espionage should be expected. Besides, upon first use you advertise the possibility and that alone will be an enabler, an existential proof that something is possible but you don't know how is a completely different story than groping in the dark while wondering if a thing is possible or not. Any kind of lead will surely be sooner or later be squashed. Note that nobody thought that using the patent system to get IP protection on the Atomic Bomb was a good idea: our friendly ways to establish who gets to make bank on an invention like that would simply fail and would actually pass valuable information to the perceived opponents.

When applied to medicine that same attitude becomes parasitic: you may be able to make much more money by restricting the distribution of the knowledge that could save people or prevent their suffering. This is where Martin Shkreli and other such characters come in to play.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#138

Post by whazor »

nixass wrote: post #69
CalRobert wrote: post #62

If European leadership has even half a brain cell this could be the catalyst for enormous growth in European science. But they’d need to act fast.

Not until decision makers in Germany exchange ideas through fax machines first

There are luckily other countries in EU outside of Germany.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#139

Post by derangedHorse »

ocschwar wrote: post #31

This ends science in the United States. You can't really enroll graduate students for a 5 year PHD project if their funding can be pulled at a moment's notice like this.

Most of my friends got grants from industry. Relying on federal grants to build up a generation of grad students in any field seems like a recipe for disaster. This change might actually bring a higher standard of tax-payer funded research if it enables the public to have faster feedback mechanisms when research stagnates or is misaligned with the public interest.

Re: New executive order puts all grants under political control

#140

Post by sillyfluke »

thrown-0825 wrote: post #128
panarchy wrote: post #8

There's a reason the Americans discovered how to make atomic weapons first and it's because their researchers were living under a less oppressive state that wasn't motivated by anti-intellectualism and dumb ideology.

This is propaganda. The Manhattan project succeeded because it was consuming a significant portion of the US GDP at the time, the scientists were forced to live on site with their families and every word they said was monitored.

>This is propaganda. The Manhattan project succeeded because it was consuming a significant portion of the US GDP at the time.

I'm confused, are you claiming the enemy was not consuming a significant portion of their GDP on their weapons program?

the "necessary but not sufficient" concept applies here.

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