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EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

cointelegraph.com

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Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#131

Post by hintklb »

shafyy wrote: post #123
hintklb wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a European citizen and I disagree. Compared to the US and a lot of places in the world, Europeans generally care less and have more trust in their government. There is a general sense that elected officials generally do what is best for the people. This leads to less scrutiny and push back in general. Definitely way less than in the US.

This probably differs from country to country though. I have worked and lived in Switzerland (I know, not EU), Germany and US, and it does not feel like people don't care here in EU. In fact, in terms of people going out on the streets and demonstrating, it takes a lot less in countries like Germany and France to so compared to the US, in my experience. For example in Switzerland, there's the instrument of a "Volksin…

I think you make good points.

The main difference that struck me between the EU and living in the US is that by default EU citizens will assume good intent. I see European protests as interest groups that need to show that they are still important once in a while.

In the US, people will assume bad intent by default for politicians. This will lead to a ton more push back and scrutiny

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#132

Post by wqaatwt »

azmodeus wrote: post #37
sackfield wrote: post #32

This pops up every few years, and I bet once it gets in it never goes away. It seems asymmetric that one side only has to win once to win permanently while the other side has to win constantly. Is there any mechanism to stop this in the EU and make this kind of legislation explicitly barred?

Vote them out and never vote for their parties in your general elections If your Member of European Parliament supports chat control stop voting for their parties and politically support their opposition

Problem is that very few “normal” people are even aware of this. Very few people particularly interested about most policies on the EU level. So they pretty much have free reign to do anything with minimal repercussions.

For better or for worse the EU itself is about as much of a democracy as some of the European empires were back in the in early 1900s with their sham parliaments which had very little real power.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#134

Post by wqaatwt »

efitz wrote: post #44

Do citizens in the EU actually want this? If not, how are EU politicians so disconnected from their citizens? How did this state of affairs come to be? Is it reversible? In the US, our politicians don’t diverge quite as much, but when they do, the reason is money, and when it gets bad, we throw the bums out and elect populists. It’s not pretty and it’s messy but it self corrects with the next election if it doesn’t w…

Simple. The EU is hardly a democracy. It’s run almost entirely by appointed bureaucrats with delusions of grandeur. The European parliament is there but it’s very weak relative to actual national parliaments and most people unfortunately don’t really care that much about politics on the EU level..

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#135

Post by wqaatwt »

shafyy wrote: post #94
hintklb wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU citizens have way too much trust in their government and elected officials. A lot of people here just assume officials act in the interest of the population and most people don't really check or care to understand in detail those type of proposals. And unlike the US, very few people are going to push back based on "freedom" and "my rights" which is unfortunate in my opinion. This lack of pushback is why those type…

That's not true. The issue with EU is that it's not really representative, and this is being critised for a long time and I hope should change in the near future. The EU parliament (the only directly elected body of the EU) does currently not have enough power.

> The issue with EU is that it's not really representative

Well yes, because most European citizens couldn’t care less about this fact.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#136

Post by shafyy »

hintklb wrote: post #131
shafyy wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This probably differs from country to country though. I have worked and lived in Switzerland (I know, not EU), Germany and US, and it does not feel like people don't care here in EU. In fact, in terms of people going out on the streets and demonstrating, it takes a lot less in countries like Germany and France to so compared to the US, in my experience. For example in Switzerland, there's the instrument of a "Volksin…

I think you make good points. The main difference that struck me between the EU and living in the US is that by default EU citizens will assume good intent. I see European protests as interest groups that need to show that they are still important once in a while. In the US, people will assume bad intent by default for politicians. This will lead to a ton more push back and scrutiny

> In the US, people will assume bad intent by default for politicians. This will lead to a ton more push back and scrutiny

Maybe... Again, this might differ from country to country. I currently live in Germany, and here scrutiny of the current federal government (and also the state government in my state) is pretty decent.

Also, some of the decisions that were made (mostly related to working with the far-right party AfD and on immigration law) led to nation-wide protests where over months and months millions of people went on the streets.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#137

Post by wqaatwt »

pmg101 wrote: post #117

Something the HN discussion on this topic just like the UK online safety act seems to ignore is that this kind of legislation has broad support among voters. I'd say in general people are more concerned about The Bad People than about privacy. Probably because they mostly trust their governments, certainly more than they trust Big Tech.

Most voters (in EU’s case anyway) are neither aware nor understand what is this all about. If you told are random person that the government will be able to freely access and read all of your private comment I bet they wouldn’t be too excited about it. Unfortunately only a tiny minority are even aware this is happening..

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#138

Post by tene80i »

domq wrote: post #130
tene80i wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably something like: Privacy is valuable, so corporations shouldn't be freely able to trade your data for advertising purposes. But CSAM leads to unimaginable harms carried out on vulnerable people, and so is worth giving up some privacy to stop/reduce.

... You have no idea how the internet works do you. Why are you here?

Well aren’t you a treat!

The question was what was their logic, how could they possibly believe these inconsistent things, so I’m offering what their logic might be. Not mine.

But even if it was what I think, your response is rude and thoughtless. I would like to imagine you can do better.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#139

Post by wqaatwt »

domq wrote: post #133
formerly_proven wrote: post #13

The overall policymaking direction of the EU can be summarized aptly: Pride cometh before the fall.

The US being the one that showeth us the way of the fall that cometh huh?

Seems entirely tangential? It shouldn’t be a race to the bottom…

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#140

Post by wqaatwt »

hsuduebc2 wrote: post #46

Even though it goes against all my beliefs and values, I still see it primarily as a desperate attempt to gain at least some means of control over encrypted tools — which are, in fact, constantly used for criminal activity. The endlessly recycled “think of the children” argument is laughably pathetic. I don't understand why they don't present the real and much more reasonable justifications — such as terrorism in Eur…

Not incompetent criminals will just workaround, there is no way to avoid that besides 1984 style universal surveillance.
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