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Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

cnbc.com

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Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#131

Post by HWR_14 »

guywithahat wrote: post #4

> The company must pay $329 million in damages to victims and survivor, including compensatory and punitive damages. > A Tesla owner named George McGee was driving his Model S electric sedan while using the company’s Enhanced Autopilot, a partially automated driving system. > While driving, McGee dropped his mobile phone that he was using and scrambled to pick it up. He said during the trial that he believed Enhanced…

329 million is not just compensatory damages (the value of the human life) but also punitive damages. That number floats up to whatever it takes to disincentivize Tesla in the future.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#132

Post by HWR_14 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #102
dontlaugh wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would be nice to see executions of corporations as punishment.

> Would be nice to see executions of corporations as punishment Fines. Massive fines. "Corporate death penalty" is a genius invention of corporate lawyers to distract from the punitive effect of massive fines. Fines and license revocable are precedented. They take real money from the corporation and its owners. Corporate death penalties are a legal morass that doesn’t actually punish shareholders, it just cancels a l…

I'm guessing that dissolving your LLC as a punishment would include the forfeiture of all the associated assets, not distributing them to shareholders.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#133

Post by treetalker »

The case number appears to be 1:21-cv-21940-BB (S.D. Fla.).

I practice in that court regularly. Beth Bloom has a reputation as a good trial judge, so I'm somewhat skeptical of Tesla's claims that the trial was rife with errors. That said, both the Southern District and the Eleventh Circuit are known to frequently and readily lop off sizable chunks of punitive damages awards.

The real battle is just beginning: post-trial motions (including for remittitur) will be due in about a month. Then an appeal will likely follow.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#134

Post by usefulcat »

HWR_14 wrote: post #132
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would be nice to see executions of corporations as punishment Fines. Massive fines. "Corporate death penalty" is a genius invention of corporate lawyers to distract from the punitive effect of massive fines. Fines and license revocable are precedented. They take real money from the corporation and its owners. Corporate death penalties are a legal morass that doesn’t actually punish shareholders, it just cancels a l…

I'm guessing that dissolving your LLC as a punishment would include the forfeiture of all the associated assets, not distributing them to shareholders.

The “LL” in LLC stands for Limited Liability. The whole point is to financially insulate the owner(s).

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#135

Post by JumpCrisscross »

HWR_14 wrote: post #132
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would be nice to see executions of corporations as punishment Fines. Massive fines. "Corporate death penalty" is a genius invention of corporate lawyers to distract from the punitive effect of massive fines. Fines and license revocable are precedented. They take real money from the corporation and its owners. Corporate death penalties are a legal morass that doesn’t actually punish shareholders, it just cancels a l…

I'm guessing that dissolving your LLC as a punishment would include the forfeiture of all the associated assets, not distributing them to shareholders.

> guessing that dissolving your LLC as a punishment would include the forfeiture of all the associated assets, not distributing them to shareholders

This is just expropriation. Which is legally complicated. And raises questions around what the government should do with a bunch of seized assets and liabilities that may or may not be in a going condition, and whether some stakeholders should be reimbursed for their losses, for example employees owed pay, also do pensions count, and if so executive pensions as well, and look at that the discussion got technical and boring and nobody is listening anymore.

On the other hand, a massive fine punts that problem to the company. If it can pay it, great. It pays. If it can’t, we have bankruptcy processes already in place. And the government winds up with cash, not a Tesla plant in China.

Corporate death penalties are stupid. They’re good marketing. But they’re stupid. If you want to hold large companies unaccountable, bring it up any time someone serious threatens a fine.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#136

Post by debug-desperado »

"Vehicle will not break when accelerator pedal is applied" is displayed on the screen in AutoPilot mode. The system warns you this every time you have foot on the pedal in AutoPilot mode. I wonder if it did that back in 2019 as well or if accidents like this spurred that as a UI change.

Also, how the heck is Mr. McGee supposed to come up with the other 67% of this judgment?

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#137

Post by HWR_14 »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #116
cosmicgadget wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAP but I think they can take their hands off the controls and pick up a dropped phone.

So you can on tesla when used correctly. Can you enable plane autopilot and still crash into a mountain?

Modern autopilots? No, they will not crash into a mountain or another plane.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#138

Post by singleshot_ »

stouset wrote: post #56
furyofantares wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This doesn't hold up logically unless I'm missing something, certainly the victim wouldn't be getting fined 329 million if it was decided to be his fault for not looking at the road I hope we haven't internalized the idea that corporations should be treated the same as people. There's essentially no difference $3M and $300M fine against most individuals, but $3M means very little to Tesla. If you want Tesla's behav…

I agree that Tesla should receive punitive damages. And the size of the punitive damages must be enough to discourage bad behavior. I'm not necessarily sure the victim(s) should get all of the punitive damages. $329 million is a gargantuan sum of money; it "feels" wrong to give a corporation-sized punishment to a small group of individuals. I could certainly see some proportion going toward funding regulatory agencie…

> I'm not necessarily sure the victim(s) should get all of the punitive damages.

I have some great news for you, then: the attorney probably took a third (more if they win an appeal).

> But is there an even better possible place to disburse the funds from these types of fines?

Oh, my mistake: I thought you meant way worse.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#139

Post by philistine »

scbrg wrote: post #82
metabagel wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an emergent technology. The onus is on Tesla to be crystal clear about capabilities, and consistently so. People might quite reasonably infer that something which is labeled as “auto-“ or “automatic” doesn’t require supervision.

Such as automobile?

Indeed, since you do not need to externally supervise the drivetrain in a car.

Re: Tesla must pay portion of $329M damages after fatal Autopilot crash, jury says

#140

Post by nullc »

metabagel wrote: post #110
nullc wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A true autopilot is a system on a boat or aircraft that keeps it on a set heading. ISTM in this case that's what the autopilot did.

Boats and aircraft are both different from automobiles. They have full freedom of movement. You can't set a course in the same way with an automobile, because the automobile will need to follow a roadway and possibly make turns at intersections. Boats and aircraft can have waypoints, but those waypoints can be mostly arbitrary, whereas a car needs to conform its path to the roadway, traffic, signage, etc. It's an ent…

Yes, an autopilot is not what you need on a car.
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