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I tried Servo

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Re: I tried Servo

#131

Post by cozzyd »

skinkestek wrote: post #73
Certhas wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Mozilla makes a lot of sense if you consider the following long term strategic goal: Become independent of Google money. None Google income has grown to 150M$ in 2023, up from 80M$ the year before. Mozilla has used dramatically more of the Google money to build up assets than it spends on advocacy or other projects that irl some people so. In 2023 they had 1B$ in investments. Net assets have been going up by…

The majority of Mozilla’s revenue came through Firefox—their flagship product and by far their most recognized project. And yet, somehow, they still struggle to secure adequate funding for Firefox itself , while millions are allocated to executive salaries and various advocacy initiatives.

Wait until you see executive salaries at other companies that make browsers.

Re: I tried Servo

#132

Post by empath75 »

specproc wrote: post #24
kookamamie wrote: post #5

> The Dogemania test ran at a smooth 60 FPS on my M4 Pro MacBook Pro until reaching around 400 images I ran Dogemania on Chrome until 1400 images at steady 60 FPS at which point I got bored and closed the tab.

Wow, just did this myself. The difference between Firefox and Chromium was depressing. I'm getting >100 FPS almost consistently all the way up to 1,000 in Chromium, FF barely made it above 500 before dropping below 60. Probably not a completely fair test, I've no extensions etc. on Chromium and only use it for the odd stubborn website, but that was quite a lesson in their comparative performance.

Chrome has thousands of developers working it. That is a lot of man hours for small optimizations.

Re: I tried Servo

#133

Post by rollcat »

echelon wrote: post #70
goku12 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (Taffy [0]) that can be used standalone and is widely used accross the Rust UI ecosystem, including in the Blitz [1] web engine (which also uses Taffy for Flexbox and Block layout) This is the first time I hear about Blitz. Looks equally interesting and ambitious. It is probably the real undercover web engine. Servo was widely known around when Rust debuted.

Questions for the Rust UX experts: Is Dioxus (or Leptos) much more performant than Tauri/Electron? I want to (1) build blindingly fast, low-latency, super performant UX for users, which precludes Tauri/Electron (something I'm currently using and unhappy about), but I also want to (2) maintain developer velocity, (3) have access to nice UX primitives and widgets, and (4) have it look nice and modern. Javascript/browse…

I'm no UX expert, but I regularly try out new (and old) toolkits to understand the problem space.

It really sounds like you want an immediate mode toolkit. Retained mode will never be "super-snappy", there's an entire sandwich between your code and the pixels. Look at Blender or Reaper, this is the kind of "feel" you'd be getting.

If you want retained mode + "true" native widgets on all platforms, investigate: Toga (Python), WxWidgets (C++), and Tk (Tcl). The native toolkits are often best in class on each platform, and these wrappers are about as thin as they can reasonably get (e.g. Toga uses pyobjc). Integration with Rust is left as an exercise to the reader ;)

A rich widget library is nice, but consider the depth as well. Egui went to great lengths to integrate assistive technologies, which depending on your target audience may be impactful. (Also: accessibility is for everyone. https://shortcat.app/)

If you want easy hiring, you have to go with mainstream. We've +/- named all of the options by now. Otherwise, hire a talent who's worked on the next closest thing to what you're building, and trust them to decide the direction.

Looks and beauty are in the eye of the beholder. There are many apps that have a distinct, sometimes quirky, but appreciable style. Reaper looks out of place on every platform, but I prefer it over Logic or Ableton.

Re: I tried Servo

#134

Post by Buttons840 »

jm4 wrote: post #106
Buttons840 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't find any information beyond that Tweet I linked.

I'll see if I can find it. I don't remember the specifics on rust, but it sounded like they gave it a fair shot. It was basically the one to beat until they figured out it wasn't going to work. The decision to adopt Swift wasn't made on a whim and, frankly, I'm skeptical it will happen any time soon, if ever. I think it's one of those situations where they want to make it more accessible to a next generation of devel…

> [Rust] was basically the one to beat until they figured out it wasn't going to work.

I'd love to know more about this.

Re: I tried Servo

#135

Post by echelon »

airstrike wrote: post #104
Macha wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No support for RTL or CJK text, IMEs, or accessibility tools leaves it pretty firmly in the "toy" category for me for now, sadly. This isn't meant to bash on the project specifically, basically the only tools that meet that criteria are platform native UIs, the web stack (including Electron), Qt and Flutter. AccessKit is promising to change that but I haven't checked in a while how it's going. I did see GTK looking i…

In that case, I'm happy to let you know your info is outdated. CJK/IME support has landed. https://github.com/iced-rs/iced/pull/2777

すごい！Japanese is one of our localization targets, so this is amazing!

I'm building a graphically heavy app, so two more questions:

1) Is iced appropriate for building a canvas-type drawing app with image inclusions? Right now we're using Konva.js and we'd be losing a tremendous amount of out of the box flexibility in porting to iced, but the performance wins would be a major selling point.

2) Can you include Bevy panes? We're also doing some 3D visualization, and we currently use Three.js. But we have a lot of Bevy experience too.

Re: I tried Servo

#136

Post by dimal »

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #65

I feel like Mozilla is going to join the annals of history with the likes of Xerox in the category of "Companies that created the technology of the future and casually tossed it to the wayside for competitors to scoop up" with Rust and Servo. It's mind-boggling that for a company so often seemingly playing catch-up with Google, Mozilla actually leapfrogged Google in the browser development space for a time, and then.…

Mozilla is over. They put all their eggs in the Google basket, and soon they’ll lose that. They have no viable path forward.

Servo and Ladybird are the future. I’m astounded by how quickly Ladybird is proceeding, with far fewer people than Mozilla. It’s been inspiring to see what that project is doing.

Re: I tried Servo

#137

Post by merelysounds »

rrgok wrote: post #126

> This is a danger to the open web in more ways than one. If there is only one functioning implementation of a standard, the implementation becomes the standard. I still don't understand why this is a problem. As long as the engine implementing the spec - governed by committee formed by entities other than Google itself - is open source. The problem and the waste of resource is how we are behaving now. The browser en…

In theory yes. In practice, only when the interests of the sole maintainer are aligned with the interests of the users; since these can change, it’s best to avoid a monopoly.

Case in point, recent manifest v2 deprecation is generally disliked by the community and no long term blink based alternative exists (that I know of).

Re: I tried Servo

#138

Post by MrDrMcCoy »

f311a wrote: post #38
YmiYugy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't get the point of ladybird. They have full time engineers and are soliciting donations, so it's clearly more than a hobby project. Maybe my assumptions are off, but I just can't imagine they could ever become competitive in terms of features, security and performance with the big engines. Blink is setting the pace, Webkit is barely able to keep up and Gecko is slowly falling behind. All of these teams are…

What's wrong with Webkit? It's super fast. I tested Orion browser recently.

Good implementations are hard to come by outside Apple's ecosystem.

Re: I tried Servo

#139

Post by empath75 »

zellyn wrote: post #35

> the MacRumors home page crashed after some scrolling I know there’s a ton going on, with GPUs and rendering and all kinds of things, but I guess because Rust’s memory safety and “no null pointers!” are so constantly hyped (especially in conversations about Go), that I’m always surprised when you fire up a Rust app and do something and it crashes out… [To be clear, I’m a big fan of modern sum types, and like to imag…

It can also get oomkilled

Re: I tried Servo

#140

Post by rollcat »

calibas wrote: post #87
AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #65

I feel like Mozilla is going to join the annals of history with the likes of Xerox in the category of "Companies that created the technology of the future and casually tossed it to the wayside for competitors to scoop up" with Rust and Servo. It's mind-boggling that for a company so often seemingly playing catch-up with Google, Mozilla actually leapfrogged Google in the browser development space for a time, and then.…

> It's mind-boggling that for a company so often seemingly playing catch-up with Google, Mozilla actually leapfrogged Google in the browser development space for a time, and then...decided it wasn't worth pursuing any further. Google has been Mozilla's main source of revenue since around 2006. For Mozilla to exist, all they have to do is keep Google happy. It's kind of a nice deal for Mozilla, despite being a huge co…

And it's an even better deal for Google. "But look, Chrome is not a monopoly."

If I was Google, I'd do something to set Mozilla back on that track. But oh well, Google these days is even more dysfunctional. They're about to lose search.

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