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Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

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Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#131

Post by TheFreim »

impossiblefork wrote: post #104
chasd00 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t conceal carry but it’s commonly known that you don’t draw your weapon unless you’re shooting to kill. In those situations, if there was time to chamber a round then there was time to escape. If you draw your weapon as a warning or, worse, fire warning shots you’ll be arrested for brandishing at least.

This dichotomy is obviously false though. If an attacker doesn't have a firearm you probably have time to chamber a round, if the attacker misses a shot at you you have time to chamber a round, if you have time to take cover you may have time to chamber a round and then be in an approximately 50-50 situation, etc.

This might be the impression one gets from watching movies or television shows, but its not reality. Anyone who has either trained with a handgun, or even just viewed videos of real-world confrontations will know that this isn't the case. In many encounters you have almost no time. Racking the slide and acquiring the target adds a massive amount of time (its even worse when you are under pressure).

Most defensive uses of a firearms occur at a short distance, less than five yards. It takes very little time to cover the distance. For those who are interested, here is a video covering what it looks like when someone with a knife runs straight at someone at 21 feet, you will see why the idea that people have time to rack the slide is absurd (https://youtu.be/_2zfw_4DYdQ?t=79).

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#132

Post by sugarplant »

mywittyname wrote: post #98
TheAmazingRace wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but having a round chambered can be advantageous in a self-defense scenario, where every second counts. Having to think to rack the slide before firing could be enough for your opponent to get to you first.

People take this "every second counts" idea as though it's axiomatic. I've been in my fair share of sus situations in my life and they've been either telegraphed (people starting with yelling, then intimidation, then getting into personal space) or ambiguous. I was recently at a block party with a loud DJ, and some guys fired several rounds and it took minutes to figure out what was going on. Even the first responder…

there are plenty of videos online showing situations where it did matter.

if you google around for "Ring camera video appears to show man shoot assailant in self-defense" you can find one.

some people do live in legitimately very dangerous places. whether one should carry chambered is a function of that.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#133

Post by spl757 »

There are really two separate claims being made about the P320 and unintentional discharges.

One claim is that the gun can fire when dropped at a certain angle from a certain height. The voluntary "recall" lets you send it back to Sig and they replace some parts. I think the cause was because the trigger itself was bulky enough for a drop to give it enough inertia to fire, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

The other claim is that the P320 can fire without being dropped, and while holstered, seemingly on it's own. That's all I really know about it.

I own a P320, and I consider it an unsafe weapon at this point. I have not had the self-recall fix done and I'll never chamber a round in it again, so I guess it's a paperweight now.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#134

Post by sugarplant »

TheFreim wrote: post #131
impossiblefork wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This dichotomy is obviously false though. If an attacker doesn't have a firearm you probably have time to chamber a round, if the attacker misses a shot at you you have time to chamber a round, if you have time to take cover you may have time to chamber a round and then be in an approximately 50-50 situation, etc.

This might be the impression one gets from watching movies or television shows, but its not reality. Anyone who has either trained with a handgun, or even just viewed videos of real-world confrontations will know that this isn't the case. In many encounters you have almost no time. Racking the slide and acquiring the target adds a massive amount of time (its even worse when you are under pressure). Most defensive use…

people have such insane opinions on this despite the knowledge out there. there are so many videos of self defense shootings out there now, including videos with analysis etc.

people posting talking about combat rolling and chambering after their assailant misses a shot. what the fuck lmao

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#135

Post by Analemma_ »

sparrish wrote: post #37

Not only does Sig deny that a problem exists, it denies these incidents are happening. I'll never buy another Sig. They've burned bridges IMHO.

It’s arguably even worse than that: their entire PR strategy around this issue has been not just denial but “accuse everyone who says the gun has a problem of being Woke Communist Gay Liberals out to destroy America”. If you’re not up to speed with the P320’s issues, it might sound like I’m exaggerating: I promise I’m not, you can go look up their press statements.

I’d call it shameful behavior, but it’s increasingly SOP from a class of people who have deliberately exorcised their ability to feel any shame.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#136

Post by TheFreim »

sugarplant wrote: post #134
TheFreim wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be the impression one gets from watching movies or television shows, but its not reality. Anyone who has either trained with a handgun, or even just viewed videos of real-world confrontations will know that this isn't the case. In many encounters you have almost no time. Racking the slide and acquiring the target adds a massive amount of time (its even worse when you are under pressure). Most defensive use…

people have such insane opinions on this despite the knowledge out there. there are so many videos of self defense shootings out there now, including videos with analysis etc. people posting talking about combat rolling and chambering after their assailant misses a shot. what the fuck lmao

> people posting talking about combat rolling and chambering after their assailant misses a shot. what the fuck lmao

I generally try to show them a little bit of grace. For many people their sole exposure to firearms is through video games, movies, and television shows. They have a strong "knowledge" of how things work and genuinely have no idea that their ideas are at odds with reality. Its similar to how non-tech people think "hacking" works.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#137

Post by esseph »

jleyank wrote: post #2

This seems to suggest carrying with a chambered round. Is this prudent without an external threat? They can drop the thing, or some kind of impact can yield a “design problem”. Can’t they just chamber when there’s a need?

Always carry chambered.

1. When you need it you won't remember to chamber due to stress

2. stress causes fine motor skill distortion

3. Only draw when you are prepared to fire (or you end up dealing with Brandishing laws)

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#138

Post by lenerdenator »

Ah, Sig. On the one hand, gold (P365). On the other hand, painful, agonizing failure (P320).

If you make new-design firearms in any significant volume, you will have safety recalls. I don't know how many times I've gone to another gunmaker's website to see a banner announcing a safety recall. The important thing is that you stand behind your product 100%, and Sig's not doing that, even with arguably the most prestigious military contract in the world that one can hope to get for their pistol.

I wouldn't purchase any new Sigs after seeing how they've doubled-down on denial here. This is a life-taking/life-saving tool. It cannot be wrong; it cannot fail.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#139

Post by esseph »

tshaddox wrote: post #14
hollywood_court wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be personal preference, but IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. I’m a huge Sig collector and I’ve been a fan of theirs since the 90s. I’ve carried a Sig daily for 20+ years. I only carried a P320 for a few months until I finally downsized to the P365. But I’ve got to admit that their PR and response to these incidents is not a good look. But I am a bit…

> IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. Why is that your opinion? Surely there's a wide variety of plausible scenarios where carrying a concealed weapon without a round chambered is much better than not carrying a concealed weapon.

There's been debate over this for decades that has run its course.

The consensus is carry chambered or don't carry.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#140

Post by Spooky23 »

tshaddox wrote: post #14
hollywood_court wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be personal preference, but IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. I’m a huge Sig collector and I’ve been a fan of theirs since the 90s. I’ve carried a Sig daily for 20+ years. I only carried a P320 for a few months until I finally downsized to the P365. But I’ve got to admit that their PR and response to these incidents is not a good look. But I am a bit…

> IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. Why is that your opinion? Surely there's a wide variety of plausible scenarios where carrying a concealed weapon without a round chambered is much better than not carrying a concealed weapon.

A big part of the fantasy/thought process is you’re trained and vigilant, ready to respond in a split second to some threat in the Home Depot parking lot.

The reality is… not that.

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