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Staying cool without refrigerants: Next-generation Peltier cooling

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Re: Staying cool without refrigerants: Next-generation Peltier cooling

#131

Post by scosman »

rcxdude wrote: post #51
moffkalast wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15 is absurd, regular peltiers get like 1.05 at most don't they? That's like inventing the warp drive but for cooling.

You can get a COP of ~3-4 out of regular TECs, but only at pretty low temperature differences. That's the killer, fundamentally the TEC material itself is thermally conductive and heat really wants to flow back the other way, so no matter how well it moves the heat, it winds up fighting against the heat load generated by itself. A refrigerant based heat pump works much better because the heat basically only moves in…

What's a "low temperature difference"?

I want to build a wine cooler in my basement ~20-24c, and I want it at ~16c. Is that low enough to be reasonably efficient?

Re: Staying cool without refrigerants: Next-generation Peltier cooling

#132

Post by hoherd »

throwawayoldie wrote: post #98

> Bespoke AI Hybrid Refrigerator Come the fuck on.

Seriously. When I see this kind of absurdity, I think of Humpty Dumpty in Through The Looking Glass:

> 'When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less.'

> 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you CAN make words mean so many different things.'

> 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-- that's all.'

> Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. 'They've a temper, some of them-- particularly verbs, they're the proudest--adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs--however, _I_ can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what _I_ say!'

> 'Would you tell me, please,' said Alice 'what that means?'

> 'Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. 'I meant by "impenetrability" that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't mean to stop here all the rest of your life.'

> 'That's a great deal to make one word mean,' Alice said in a thoughtful tone.

Re: Staying cool without refrigerants: Next-generation Peltier cooling

#133

Post by est »

anticensor wrote: post #4

Did they solve the inefficiency problem of peltiers?

> In the Bespoke AI Hybrid Refrigerator Samsung launched in 2024, the compressor operates under normal conditions such as routine storage and retrieval, while the Peltier device activates alongside the compressor during high-load situations — like when storing large amounts of groceries or placing hot food inside — thereby enhancing both cooling performance and energy efficiency

I'd choose a fridge with a larger compressor.

Re: Staying cool without refrigerants: Next-generation Peltier cooling

#134

Post by mark-r »

I wish they had gone into detail about what makes this device different from Peltier coolers that are available today. You can already get mini fridges that use them, but they're not very good - the total amount of cooling you can get from them is not enough to maintain the temperatures that a regular refrigerator does.

Re: Staying cool without refrigerants: Next-generation Peltier cooling

#135

Post by userbinator »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #123
userbinator wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delta Ts of 1.3°C. Might as well not use a refrigerator if your ambient temperature is that low.

You missed the "delta", meaning change. One side would have been ~23C and the other 24.3C.

That's exactly what I mean --- if your ambient temperature is ~5C then you don't need a refrigerator if it only cools down by another 1.3C.

Re: Staying cool without refrigerants: Next-generation Peltier cooling

#136

Post by lightedman »

mousethatroared wrote: post #78
fghorow wrote: post #27

For those worried about tiny COPs from these gizmos, trawling through the actual paper -- as well as the PR from JHU APL -- in this HN post [1] shows claims of COPs of ~15 for Delta Ts of 1.3°C. A compressor based cooler gets a COP of about 4 in the real world. I'm pretty sure this is an apples to oranges comparison to an expert (I am not one of those) but a factor of 3+ increase in COP is fairly noteworthy -- if it…

COP has to be compared at the same delta T. The COP of a loss less refrigerator is infinite at Delta T = 0 And you dont get to stack Peltiers to increase COP, only to increase delta T. Still, Peltiers are super cool and I have some ideas for their use od they get slightly better. Advances are super welcome.

They're already doing great. I have a portable neck AC unit that uses peltiers and it keeps my head and neck cool in otherwise nasty desert conditions when mining. Yes the radiative heating from the sun is still a bitch but a hat basically minimizes that, and also redirects the partially-chilled air more efficiently around my head and face.

The direct-contact neck cooling plates are an absolute lifesaver. Keep the sun off the back of your neck and chill one of the best heat sink locations exposed on your clothed body.

Re: Staying cool without refrigerants: Next-generation Peltier cooling

#137

Post by Calwestjobs »

binarymax wrote: post #77
fghorow wrote: post #27

For those worried about tiny COPs from these gizmos, trawling through the actual paper -- as well as the PR from JHU APL -- in this HN post [1] shows claims of COPs of ~15 for Delta Ts of 1.3°C. A compressor based cooler gets a COP of about 4 in the real world. I'm pretty sure this is an apples to oranges comparison to an expert (I am not one of those) but a factor of 3+ increase in COP is fairly noteworthy -- if it…

For anyone wondering (like me) what COP is in this context, it’s Coefficient of Performance: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance

and COP 15 is measure at 1.3'C temperature difference towards outside of fridge, so if it is 80f in your home then good luck to your lettuce.

Re: Staying cool without refrigerants: Next-generation Peltier cooling

#138

Post by userbinator »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #47
bob1029 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking about what it would look like to convert my GE fridge into a minisplit (i.e., move the compressor, condensing coil & fan outside). You can buy R600a on Amazon right now. One $60 can will charge the system ~5 times.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20120192586A1/en (abandoned)

That would've been easily invalidated by prior art from nearly a century ago; as I mentioned in a sibling comment, this was a common arrangement in the early days of domestic refrigeration.

Here's a video from someone who managed to salvage some of the components of such a system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1tXIYl20jA

Re: Staying cool without refrigerants: Next-generation Peltier cooling

#139

Post by gettingoverit »

BearOso wrote: post #8

AI has literally nothing to do with this. Why do they feel the need to sprinkle the phrase everywhere? AI inverter/compressor? Come on, have some sense of shame, please.

Actually AI has a lot to do with material design. I can't do a proper explanation, so please bear with this information dump:

- We don't have a strong physical theory for solid state physics. Quantum stuff doesn't scale well from 1 atom to a mole of atoms, because 10^23 goes into the exponent of number of energy levels in the system, and then we also have to model interaction of those levels.

- Physical properties of materials depend on their crystal structure, unevenness of that structure, spectrum of size of crystals, temperature, pressure, fields they're exposed to and current position of stars in the sky. Even the "wrong" solid state physics equations we have are highly non-linear.

- State-of-the-art effects are usually achieved with combinations of such materials.

- Exact parameters of the process used to put those materials together radically change the behavior of the system. Put that nanolayer with a different sort of vapor deposition or at different pressure, and the thing will stop working. Ever wondered why we don't produce all the neodymium magnets at N55 grade? Because even precise description of the process is not enough.

- AI doesn't care about the exact physics, but is sometimes very good at navigating in the large parameter space.

- Google have recently made AI that predicted thousands of novel material structures. They found more materials than were found by all human research over the whole humankind history.

I wouldn't expect AI to explain what's going on in solid-state physics anytime soon, but exploring crystal structures, doping, and process parameters automatically might actually get us new materials a couple hundred years faster.

Re: Staying cool without refrigerants: Next-generation Peltier cooling

#140

Post by ranger_danger »

dartharva wrote: post #12

But why? Cooling has been a solved problem for literally over a century. No Peltier cooler will ever even come close to normal refrigerant-based coolers in efficiency, both in cost and power consumed.

Are you implying that "normal refrigerant-based coolers" are somehow always the most appropriate solution for any cooling task?
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