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IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#131

Post by lukan »

volleyball wrote: post #123

I guess the Israeli government's original plan to arm and support drug gangs and literally ISIS (euphemistically called 'clans') as "aid security" wasn't working out? Especially after it was revealed said "security" was stealing and reselling the food aid under the protection of IDF while the Israeli govt. and media blamed the looting on Hamas. And after the Israeli opposition leader exposed the whole charade and Net…

To be honest, I do prefer drug dealers over Hamas islamists in general. And where exactly is the proof the gangs are connected to ISIS?

"The basis for Lieberman’s allegation of ties to IS was unclear."

It is easy to throw dirt and hope something sticks, but the main thing speaking against his group seems Netanjahu's support in my opinion. But otherwise I don't see the scandal so much here. Especially not compared to the scandal of intentionally targeting civilian population and indiscriminate killing of starving people like the article states.

Edit: But I just read

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerem_Shalom_aid_convoy_loot...

And well, that is indeed better to show who we are dealing with, ruthless criminals who loot and shoot a UN aid convoy for profit.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#132

Post by ajb »

roshin wrote: post #128
ajb wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even ignoring primary crimes, under Israeli law, even incitement to genocide is punishable by death. But so many members of the political and media elite have made inciting statements, that the rubicon is crossed; the political class cannot allow any serious, independent consideration of war crimes to ever occur, because that would risk them all facing the firing squad. This in turn signals to individual soldiers tha…

Regarding the risk to Israelis facing the firing squad, you do know that Israel only executed Eichmann (and one other person in a field court) since the founding of the country? When it comes to the list of things that Israelis fear, being sentenced to a firing squad is very low down.

Fair enough, but I don't think that makes the incentive much different. If you are convicted of a crime punishable by death, your actual punishment is not likely to be trivial.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#133

Post by stavros »

lordofgibbons wrote: post #73

This genocide has, for many people, burst any illusions of a "rules based world order". There multiple EU signatory countries of the Rome Statute (pledging to cooperate with ICC) that have welcomed these war criminals... who have warrants out by the ICC. And the same war criminals are invited to give a speech at the U.S Congress to near unanimous applause. It really makes you wonder if we're the "good guys". -- edit…

If you're still wondering if you're the good guys, you haven't been paying attention. I don't think there are any "good guys" when it comes to nations, but for the US it's not even close.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#134

Post by originalvichy »

lucubratory wrote: post #19
austin-cheney wrote: post #12

The biggest problem with this isn’t the horror of the actual war crime. The far more serious concern are the lengths the government will go to avoid holding anyone accountable. That is so much worse because it unintentionally endorses future crimes and challenges the offenders to take ever more offensive actions without fear of consequences.

I do not believe it is unintentional.

They can take out nuclear scientists thousands of kilometers away by either planting bombs in their cars in traffic or firing accurate munitions through their windows when they sleep.

Thousands of kilometers away.

The IDF can be highly sophisticated in their plans and methods when they want to.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#135

Post by intended »

niemandhier wrote: post #108

This comment thread is the most civilised online discussion I have seen in a long while about this particular topic, despite people coming from diverse backgrounds and disagreeing. In this sense, hackernews gives me hope that online culture is not lost yet.

This is at t= 3 hours, and large swathes of people asleep on a weekend.

These types of topics pull themselves apart VERY fast, as the homogenity of discussion norms / definitions, shared by users decreases.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#136

Post by fakedang »

lukan wrote: post #131
volleyball wrote: post #123

I guess the Israeli government's original plan to arm and support drug gangs and literally ISIS (euphemistically called 'clans') as "aid security" wasn't working out? Especially after it was revealed said "security" was stealing and reselling the food aid under the protection of IDF while the Israeli govt. and media blamed the looting on Hamas. And after the Israeli opposition leader exposed the whole charade and Net…

To be honest, I do prefer drug dealers over Hamas islamists in general. And where exactly is the proof the gangs are connected to ISIS? "The basis for Lieberman’s allegation of ties to IS was unclear." It is easy to throw dirt and hope something sticks, but the main thing speaking against his group seems Netanjahu's support in my opinion. But otherwise I don't see the scandal so much here. Especially not compared to…

[flagged]

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#137

Post by lukan »

fakedang wrote: post #136
lukan wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, I do prefer drug dealers over Hamas islamists in general. And where exactly is the proof the gangs are connected to ISIS? "The basis for Lieberman’s allegation of ties to IS was unclear." It is easy to throw dirt and hope something sticks, but the main thing speaking against his group seems Netanjahu's support in my opinion. But otherwise I don't see the scandal so much here. Especially not compared to…

[flagged]

No, because drug dealers by definition mainly sell drugs to people who want them.

A subset of them indeed engages with dark methods like mixing highly addictive drugs into harmless ones and turf war, but the majority just sells things.

Before weed was legal in germany I engaged with quite some of them and they were mostly decent people all in all. Not the greatest and often messed up themself a bit, but otherwise no danger to me or anyone else. My choice if I damaged myself with their products.

A islamist on the other hand is buisy by definition with spreading the rule of Islam over everyone, everywhere.

Dangerous to any non muslim.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#138

Post by locallost »

The guidelines of HN, to be kind and curious in the comments, are difficult to follow in this case. Outrage doesn't bring anything either, but a polite and curious discussion is impossible. The lack of reflection in the western world on this issue is seriously disturbing.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#139

Post by fakedang »

lukan wrote: post #137
fakedang wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

No, because drug dealers by definition mainly sell drugs to people who want them. A subset of them indeed engages with dark methods like mixing highly addictive drugs into harmless ones and turf war, but the majority just sells things. Before weed was legal in germany I engaged with quite some of them and they were mostly decent people all in all. Not the greatest and often messed up themself a bit, but otherwise no…

So you're equating the drug dealing "clans" in Gaza to your local streetside dealer in Germany?

Both Hamas and the clans are cancers to society, and it's abhorrent that the IDF is dealing with them to distribute aid, instead of being directly involved (which they can easily commit to).

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#140

Post by xorcist »

FranzFerdiNaN wrote: post #59
austin-cheney wrote: post #12

The biggest problem with this isn’t the horror of the actual war crime. The far more serious concern are the lengths the government will go to avoid holding anyone accountable. That is so much worse because it unintentionally endorses future crimes and challenges the offenders to take ever more offensive actions without fear of consequences.

Why would the government hold someone accountable for its own actions? Let’s not pretend that this is just some random soldiers doing this, this is exactly what the Israeli government wants.

Because "the govahment" is not a singular entity. In functioning democracies, by popular definition in large parts of the field, legislative and executive powers are kept separated from the judicial powers. So the executive power can not interfere with being held accountable. That's not fullt implemented everywhere, but that is the general idea how it is supposed to work.
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