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DeepSeek R2 launch stalled as CEO balks at progress

reuters.com

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Re: DeepSeek R2 launch stalled as CEO balks at progress

#131

Post by subarctic »

kstrauser wrote: post #111
spaceman_2020 wrote: post #11

Honestly, AI progress suffers because of these export restrictions. An open source model that can compete with Gemini Pro 2.5 and o3 is good for the world, and good for AI

DeepSeek refuses to acknowledge Tiananmen Square. I don’t want to use a model that’s known to heavily censor historical data. What else is it denying or lying about that’s going to affect how I use it? (In before “whatabout”: maybe US-made models do the same, but I’ve yet to hear reports of any anti-US information that they’re censoring.)

I thought that censoring was done separately and doesn't occur if you run the model locally

Re: DeepSeek R2 launch stalled as CEO balks at progress

#132

Post by sschueller »

apples_oranges wrote: post #117
jaggs wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It's about China being expansionist Citations? Apart from usual Western government propaganda outlets perhaps?

They are aiming for world domination by buying themselves into businesses all over the planet and by building up a very large army. But that’s just normal human behavior I guess. The problem is rather that if the only moral compass is the communist party it will suck

Interesting, I don't recall Iran having to flying bombers for 36 hours to bomb a US military base...

Re: DeepSeek R2 launch stalled as CEO balks at progress

#133

Post by ericd »

ethbr1 wrote: post #125
apples_oranges wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are aiming for world domination by buying themselves into businesses all over the planet and by building up a very large army. But that’s just normal human behavior I guess. The problem is rather that if the only moral compass is the communist party it will suck

It's a bit rich to attribute goals of world domination to buying into businesses all over the world and building a very large army. By those metrics, the rest of the world should have been terrified by the US for the last 60 years... Those are necessary precursors to aggressive expansionism, but insufficient without political will.

Context matters, who is leading that machinery? They seem to have the political will to invade.

Re: DeepSeek R2 launch stalled as CEO balks at progress

#134

Post by kstrauser »

subarctic wrote: post #131
kstrauser wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DeepSeek refuses to acknowledge Tiananmen Square. I don’t want to use a model that’s known to heavily censor historical data. What else is it denying or lying about that’s going to affect how I use it? (In before “whatabout”: maybe US-made models do the same, but I’ve yet to hear reports of any anti-US information that they’re censoring.)

I thought that censoring was done separately and doesn't occur if you run the model locally

Nope, it’s local too. I ran it in Ollama and it refused to tell me: https://honeypot.net/2025/01/27/i-like-running-ollama-on.htm...

Re: DeepSeek R2 launch stalled as CEO balks at progress

#135

Post by jaggs »

ethbr1 wrote: post #128
jaggs wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay so thanks very much. That's not really a citation that's an opinion? To translate what you're saying. The Chinese are trying to establish the same kind of global trade collaboration that Europe and the US have done for the past hundred and x years? But the Chinese civilization is over 2000 years old, and they had a much larger global trade network back when the west was a pile of wooden shacks and feudal barbari…

> I'm also not really sure what's wrong with the moral compass of the Chinese communist party? From what I can see at the moment it is authoritative, but not necessarily venal? It's certainly corrupt. Xi didn't launch major, disruptive anti-corruption drives for no reason, but because he saw it as an existential threat to the CCP's legitimacy (after all, it did torpedo the Soviet Union). Granted, an alternate rationa…

I think stones in glass houses comes to mind right now? :)

Re: DeepSeek R2 launch stalled as CEO balks at progress

#136

Post by cma »

terafo wrote: post #80
reliabilityguy wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using H20 to serve DeepSeek V3 / R1 is just SUPER inefficient. Like, R1 is the most anti-H20 model released ever. Why? Any chance you have some links to read about why it’s the case?

MLA uses way more flops in order to conserve memory bandwidth, H20 has plenty of memory bandwidth and almost no flops. MLA makes sense on H100/H800, but on H20 GQA-based models are a way better option.

Didn't deep-seek figure out how to train with mixed precision and so get much more out of the cards, with a lot of the training steps able to run at what was traditionally post training quantization type precisions (block compressed).

Re: DeepSeek R2 launch stalled as CEO balks at progress

#137

Post by FooBarWidget »

ethbr1 wrote: post #122
FooBarWidget wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to most China news. Many "well-documented" China "facts" are in fact cases like this: the media taking rumors or straight up fabricating things for clicks, and then self-referencing (or different media referencing each other in a circle) to put up the guise of reliable news. This is why we need to be critical of journalists nowadays. No longer are they the Fourth Column, protecting society and democracy by pr…

The second (be critical of journalism as a field's accuracy) doesn't follow from the first (there are bad journalists). Especially since the alternative is to live in a world without facts. Which some people would probably love, but I prefer my reality to be constructed from objectivity rather than authority.

That sounds to me like you are excusing a bad reality based on a nonexistant ideal. Saying "there are bad journalists" is a huge understatement. There are many, perhaps even the majority. Ask yourself why society at large has stopped trusting mainstream media, it's not just because there are a "few" bad apples but because the bad apples are widespread and systemic.

The tendency to compare to a nonexistant ideal is also something I find very very weird. This tendency does not exist for many other concepts. For example when people talk about communism, and someone say "hey $COUNTRY is just one bad apple, it doesn't mean real communism is bad" then others are quick to respond with "but all countries doing communism have devolved into tyranny/dictatorship/etc, so real communism doesn't exist and what we've seen is the real deal". I am not criticizing that (common) point of view, but people ought to take responsibility and apply this principle equally to all concepts, including "journalism".

It also doesn't follow that my critique of journalists/journalism means tearing down journalism altogether. It can also mean:

- that people need to stop trusting mainstream journalists blindly on topics they're not adept in. Right now many people have stopped trusting mainstream journalists only for topics they're adept in, but as soon as those journalists write nonsense about something else (e.g. $ENEMY_STATE) then they swallow that uncritically. No. The response should be "they lied about X, what else are they lying about?" instead of letting themselves be manipulated in other areas.

- that society as a whole needs to hold journalism accountable, and demand that they return to the role of the Fourth Column.

Re: DeepSeek R2 launch stalled as CEO balks at progress

#138

Post by ethbr1 »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #137
ethbr1 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second (be critical of journalism as a field's accuracy) doesn't follow from the first (there are bad journalists). Especially since the alternative is to live in a world without facts. Which some people would probably love, but I prefer my reality to be constructed from objectivity rather than authority.

That sounds to me like you are excusing a bad reality based on a nonexistant ideal. Saying "there are bad journalists" is a huge understatement. There are many , perhaps even the majority. Ask yourself why society at large has stopped trusting mainstream media, it's not just because there are a "few" bad apples but because the bad apples are widespread and systemic. The tendency to compare to a nonexistant ideal is a…

> Ask yourself why society at large has stopped trusting mainstream media

Because certain political interests take the existence of a fact-based, independent power center as a threat to their own power?

And so engineered a multi-decade campaign to indoctrinate people against the news/media, thus removing a roadblock to imposing their own often contrary-to-fact narratives?

Pretending this happened in a vacuum or was grassroots ignores mountains of money deployed with specific intent over spans of time.

> It can also mean that society as a whole needs to hold journalism accountable, and demand that they return to the role of the Fourth Column.

I absolutely agree with this.

If I had my druthers, the US would reinstate the fairness doctrine (abolished in 1987) and specifically the components requiring large media corporations to subsidize non-profit newsrooms as a public good.

The US would be a better place if we banned 24/7 for-profit news.

Re: DeepSeek R2 launch stalled as CEO balks at progress

#139

Post by ethbr1 »

ericd wrote: post #133
ethbr1 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit rich to attribute goals of world domination to buying into businesses all over the world and building a very large army. By those metrics, the rest of the world should have been terrified by the US for the last 60 years... Those are necessary precursors to aggressive expansionism, but insufficient without political will.

Context matters, who is leading that machinery? They seem to have the political will to invade.

Taiwan is a tricky case. The CCP isn't unjustified in making a claim to it. Granted: that claim is contrary to international norms, law, and the population's self determination.

But if China were only threatening to invade Taiwan it would be a gray area.

Imho, their claims in the South China Sea are much more obviously expansionist, given the settled cases against them under international law.

Much easier to see those boiling over into China invading a few populated islands of the Philippines.

Re: DeepSeek R2 launch stalled as CEO balks at progress

#140

Post by MichaelZuo »

tonfa wrote: post #72
rvnx wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How it is written it could be 3 anonymous and random guys from Reddit who heard about DeepSeek online.

The phrasing for quoting sources is extremely codified, it means the journalists have verified who the sources are (either insider or people with access with insider information).

How does this matter?

If the journalists aren’t fully trusted in the first place… trusting them to strictly adhere to even the best codified rules seems even less likely.

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