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Is gravity just entropy rising? Long-shot idea gets another look

quantamagazine.org

131–140 of 298 posts

Re: Is gravity just entropy rising? Long-shot idea gets another look

#131

"There’s some kind of gas or some thermal system out there that we can’t see directly" - The Ether is back on the menu boys

What Causes Gravitational Time Dilation? A Physical Explanation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjwQsKMh2v8

I like the river model which helps with the intuition.

Re: Is gravity just entropy rising? Long-shot idea gets another look

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mathematics is a human language. It being a formal language doesn’t change that. Further, it’s not objective: you’re choosing the basis which causes the complexity, but any particular structure can be made simple in some basis.

Mathematical notation is a human invention, but the structure that mathematics describes is objective. The choice of basis changes the absolute number of terms, but the relative magnitude of terms for a more or less disordered state is generally fixed outside of degenerate cases.

The structure that most words describe is objective, so you haven’t distinguished math as a language. (Nor is mathematics entirely “objective”, eg, axiom of choice.) And the number of terms in your chosen language with your chosen basis isn’t objective: that’s an intrinsic fact to your frame.

The complexity of terms is not fixed — that’s simply wrong mathematically. They’re dependent on our chosen basis. Your definition is circular, in that you’re implicitly defining “non-degenerate” as those which make your claim true.

You can’t make the whole class simplified at once, but for any state, there exists a basis in which it is simple.

Re: Is gravity just entropy rising? Long-shot idea gets another look

#133
It's a fascinating idea that gravity could be an emergent result of how information works in the universe. I feel like we still don't have that clear piece of evidence where this model predicts something different from general relativity. For now it is one of those theories that are fun to explore but still hard to fully accept.

Re: Is gravity just entropy rising? Long-shot idea gets another look

#134
post #40

As an experimental physicist, I refuse to get excited about a new theory until the proponent gets to an observable phenomenon that can fix the question.

Sometimes I wonder, imagine if our physics never allowed for Blackholes to exist. How would we know to stress test our theories? Blackholes are like standard candles in cosmology which allows us to make theoretical progress.

Re: Is gravity just entropy rising? Long-shot idea gets another look

#135

This seems backwards. Entropy is a dispersive force — it favors distribution and disorder. But the universe clumps. Planets, stars, galaxies — all of them are low-entropy configurations. So how did scattered dust particles form the planet we’re standing on… through entropy? If gravity is just emergent from entropy, then it should be fighting against planet formation, not causing it. There’s a missing piece here — may…

You have it backwards. The lowest entropy state of the universe would be if there were no attractive forces, only repellent forces, as then all particles would be forced into something of an expanding lattice, but with all particles equidistant from all nearest neighbors (of the same type).

It is gravity which disrupts this and causes clumping, and that _increases_ entropy.

I know it's confusing because normally one would think of a cloud of gas as more disordered than the star it might collapse into, but that is not so. For one the star would be much hotter, and the motions of every particle in the star much more chaotic.

Re: Is gravity just entropy rising? Long-shot idea gets another look

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entropy isn't a force. It doesn't "favor" anything. Its a property of statistics, information, and distributions. Also why does this have that particular ChatGPT social media post rhythm to it? Please, Lord, tell me we haven't reached the point where people are writing HN comments w/ AI.

You’re right. the cadence is written by ChatGPT. I’m pretty terrible at keeping my thoughts cohesive, so I often use it as a post processor. I’ll try not to do that. Because you had the decency to respond, I’ll spent some more time thinking about this and see if I can come up with a more well rounded response that incorporates more of the traditional language of physics. But to your point about entropy not being a “f…

> would you rather have a book that explains everything and not know how to read it, or trust your own eyes ears and hands, and not be able to share it?

Maybe use AI to help you understand TFA instead of writing gut reactions to the title.

Re: Is gravity just entropy rising? Long-shot idea gets another look

#137

I don't get it. To me, entropy is not a physical thing, but a measure of our imperfect knowledge about a system. We can only measure the bulk properties of matter, so we've made up a number to quantify how imperfect the bulk properties describe the true microscopic state of the system. But if we had the ability to zoom into the microscopic level, entropy would make no sense. So I don't see how gravity or any other fu…

Entropy is the opposite of potential

Entropy is complicated beyond just a Rankine or Carnot cycle.

Biology thrives at the ebbs, flows, and eddies of entropy. Predation. Biochemical flux. There are arrows flowing every which way, and systems that keep it finely tuned.

This theory, based on my surface level reading and understanding, is that the aggregate particle-level entropy within sub light speed systems creates gravity.

Re: Is gravity just entropy rising? Long-shot idea gets another look

#138

Entropic gravity is a compelling framework. I think that most Physicists admit that it would be nice to believe that the yet unknown theory of everything is microscopic and quantum mechanical, and that the global and exquisitly weak force of gravity emerges from that theory as a sort of accounting error. But there are so many potential assumptions baked into these theories that it's hard to believe when they claim, "…

Jacobson showed that thermodynamics + special relativity = GR. Those are very very general assumptions, so general that it’s hard to even consider what else you might ask for.

Re: Is gravity just entropy rising? Long-shot idea gets another look

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entropy isn't a force. It doesn't "favor" anything. Its a property of statistics, information, and distributions. Also why does this have that particular ChatGPT social media post rhythm to it? Please, Lord, tell me we haven't reached the point where people are writing HN comments w/ AI.

Because it has emdashes and ellipses that Chrome, Firefox, Mac, Linux, and Android text input controls do not natively produce. I don't know about iPhone. If you see these artifacts, it was authored in some other software (be it an editor or LLM) and pasted over.

iPhone definitely turns `--` into `—`, at least sometimes.

Re: Is gravity just entropy rising? Long-shot idea gets another look

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Warm objects actually do weigh more than their counterfactual cold versions haha. The stress energy tensor is the quantity to look at here.

I didn't know this, thanks for sharing. https://herebeanswers.com/things-weigh-heavier-or-lighter-wh...

I feel like you have somehow found the least authoritative source for the wonderful new information provided...

why did you choose that one? serious question, because I'm trying to understand your process (and yes, maybe gently challenging it, but unsure if I should, bc you are clearly knowledgeable in specific ways about this)

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