Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear • Hacker News Board

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#131

Post by h2zizzle » Mon, Jun 16, 2025, 2:26 PM UTC

jjk166 wrote: post #107

h2zizzle wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could also be like climate change, where it correctly describes a broad phenomenon, but cannot be used to identify or classify any individual event. E.g., Wildfires are probably getting worse because of climate change, but it's difficult to say if the Pacific Palisades fire would not have happened in a cooler global climate. So, is microbiome-mediated social anxiety selected for as an advantageous trait for societies…

> you would expect protective social anxiety to arise in people whose situation hasn't much changed except that they've encountered people whose has (as with sedentary villagers encountering nomads who may or may not be about to ransack their settlement). No, you would not expect that. If rats that self-isolate when their gut micro-biomes change avoid diseases that other rats get afflicted with, then evolution will l…

GP's hypothesis is that diet/environment microbiome changes induce a protective social anxiety. However, a nomadic population - the most likely to exhibit those changes - are successful when exhibiting prosocial or confrontational characteristics, the opposite of social anxiety. Social anxiety is most protective for sedentary groups, who probably should be suspicious of outsiders.

Nothing you said contradicts this, and I'm not sure how to square the circle, even though microbiome-mediated behavior as an explanation for broad, otherwise irrational behavior patterns is attractive.

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#132

Post by Integrape » Mon, Jun 16, 2025, 2:41 PM UTC

notfed wrote: post #123

jadamson wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yoghurts probably won't help, but Fecal Microbiota Transplantation might. A team at the University of Calgary is currently recruiting participants with Major Depressive Disorder and Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder: https://research.ucalgary.ca/participate/clinical-trial-eval... https://research.ucalgary.ca/participate/focused-study-fmt-o...

Eat more poop?

You have to boof the poo for it to work right.

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#133

Post by francisofascii » Mon, Jun 16, 2025, 2:46 PM UTC

veunes wrote: post #43

Yeah, the brain might not be the only place we should be looking when it comes to mental health.

Scientists think of the gut as our second brain or perhaps an extension of our brain.

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#134

Post by j-conn » Mon, Jun 16, 2025, 2:53 PM UTC

reliablereason wrote: post #67

Tarsul wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am talking about the sugar in sweets. My daily apple does not appear to heighten my anxiety.

I have heard people say that eating fibers together with fructose(like when eating a apple) reduces the impact of fructose, as fibers create a lining on the gut wall reducing the absorption rate. Sounds reasonable. But i have had a hard time finding evidence verifying that hypotesis.

I’m not sure about that mechanism, but the impact on blood sugar is quantified as “glycemic index” and “glycemic load.”

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#135

Post by ac29 » Mon, Jun 16, 2025, 3:06 PM UTC

Geee wrote: post #89

pogue wrote: post #19

I've seen probiotic supplements that have strains that claim to help with anxiety and depression, but I've never really looked into them because I'm quite skeptical they do anything. But if anyone is familiar with them and has any feedback I'd be interested to hear it.

There's this one person who claims to have found out that theses probiotics need to be amplified into a megadose, and subsequently they cured themselves from social anxiety. I'm not sure if there are other people who have replicated, but the initial report seems trustworthy. See https://pdfcoffee.com/experimental-treatment-for-social-phob...

Aside from the other red flags in that link, the author claims to be able to get rid of SAD symptoms in "about 45 minutes" which strongly suggests a placebo effect to me (or at least not an effect from changes in their microbiome).

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#136

Post by ac29 » Mon, Jun 16, 2025, 3:12 PM UTC

pogue wrote: post #63

h2zizzle wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fermented foods are way more helpful IME. I've even found kombucha protective against mildly spoiled food. I can also attest to having my first alcoholic drink in a while and it screwing me up for a week.

I've always been skeptical of probiotic supplements in general mostly because they are stored/shipped in unrefrigerated environments. I believe in most cases the bacteria would end up dead before you even ingested it. However, some companies have developed strains that can withstand some amount of heat. But you never know where they've been stored/for how long/etc. I remember speaking to someone who had the suggestio…

> I've always been skeptical of probiotic supplements in general mostly because they are stored/shipped in unrefrigerated environments. I believe in most cases the bacteria would end up dead before you even ingested it. However, some companies have developed strains that can withstand some amount of heat. But you never know where they've been stored/for how long/etc.

Probiotics in pill/capsule form are generally freeze dried, so they are much less temperature sensitive than live bacteria.

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#137

Post by ac29 » Mon, Jun 16, 2025, 3:19 PM UTC

bhaney wrote: post #30

pogue wrote: post #19

I've seen probiotic supplements that have strains that claim to help with anxiety and depression, but I've never really looked into them because I'm quite skeptical they do anything. But if anyone is familiar with them and has any feedback I'd be interested to hear it.

Whether or not the effect in the paper turns out to be true and reproducible, the supplements you've seen almost certainly don't do anything unless you're wiping out your established gut microbiota with antibiotics first. Your existing microbiota are entrenched and in a very good position to defend themselves from any weakened intruders you might intentionally introduce. Meanwhile, supplement companies really like to…

> Whether or not the effect in the paper turns out to be true and reproducible, the supplements you've seen almost certainly don't do anything unless you're wiping out your established gut microbiota with antibiotics first. Your existing microbiota are entrenched and in a very good position to defend themselves from any weakened intruders you might intentionally introduce.

There is an ton of probiotic research that shows probiotics can survive transit to the gut and reproduce there.

Even without probiotic supplmentaion, you microbiome absolutely can and will change over time.

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#138

Post by replwoacause » Mon, Jun 16, 2025, 3:23 PM UTC

bluefirebrand wrote: post #98

pogue wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite interesting. In my experience, I've suffered from severe anxiety and depression my entire adult life. I spent years working with a psychiatrist trying every SSRI on the market. None of them seemed to help in the slightest, until I asked to try Eldepryl (selegiline), an MAO-B. It helps greatly with depression, but hasn't helped with anxiety. An MAO-B has the advantage of not having any issue with tyramine…

I am always cautious about offering any kind of medical suggestions online. Please take this with a grain of salt: I struggled with anxiety and depression, treated with anti-depressants and such After years of that, a doctor suggested I test for ADHD and I got medicated for that after the test was positive After being medicated for ADHD, I had much less anxiety and basically no depression. Turns out that both Anxiety…

I hear this often and am curious about it, as someone with an ADHD-PI diagnosis who has taken nearly every med, ranging from Ritalin, Adderall, Vyvanse, Dexedrine, to Strattera and possibly others I can't recall over the past 20 years. I've never felt like any of them had any lasting effect on my anxiety or depression. They all give a temporary relief of some of these symptoms while the drug is in my system, but I always return to baseline, which results in a roller coaster effect. Strattera may have been the exception because its not a stimulant like the others but ultimately it didn't address issues with motivation so I stopped it. I would love something that successfully addressed ADHD+anxiety+depression. And yes, I exercise, get 8 hours of sleep on average, eat pretty good, and don't live a stressful live.

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#139

Post by francisofascii » Mon, Jun 16, 2025, 3:37 PM UTC

I suspect that this is a compounding effect of two stressors. The mice with a healthy microbiota can handle the social stress, but when you combine both the social stress and disordered gut, the heightened sensitivity is observed.

Re: Social anxiety disorder-associated gut microbiota increases social fear

#140

Post by cwmoore » Mon, Jun 16, 2025, 7:20 PM UTC

reliablereason wrote: post #67

Tarsul wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am talking about the sugar in sweets. My daily apple does not appear to heighten my anxiety.

I have heard people say that eating fibers together with fructose(like when eating a apple) reduces the impact of fructose, as fibers create a lining on the gut wall reducing the absorption rate. Sounds reasonable. But i have had a hard time finding evidence verifying that hypotesis.

Serotonigenic microbes digest fiber into feelgood neurotransmitters.

You're welcome.