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Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

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Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#131

Post by perching_aix »

rfrey wrote: post #127
perching_aix wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is professional in the same way that a suit and tie is professional. It's a uniform to ensure nobody stands out, and the corporation can absorb everybody's personality, like flour incorporated into bread dough. White bread, no seeds. I take you also strongly believe then that when I waltz up to work in some random hoodie, sweatpants and running shoes, that's actually some bespoke eloquent expression of self, full o…

Why would you take it that I "strongly believe" that? I said nothing of the sort, and jumping to that conclusion is a reflection of your own biases, not mine.

> Why would you take it that

Because you believe the quoted part according to your own admission.

> jumping to that conclusion is a reflection of your own biases, not mine.

Could you kindly clarify what that bias is? I'm too biased to see it apparently, so I'll not know until you put it into words.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#132

Post by squigz »

thrwwy451 wrote: post #53
Arainach wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully in a few decades the last of the people who think that using respectful discourse means no fun can be had will be gone and we can stop rehashing these threads. You're contributing to something that runs on billions of devices across the world and is maintained by people around the world of all types. If you can't describe your code, your reasons, and your notes politely, do better.

It happens to run on billions of devices, after corporations realized they can profit from "a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu)". > and is maintained by people around the world of all types. You seem to think that the whole world shares your definition of "polite". After living in a few quite different countries, I have to disagree. The diversity out there is huge. There's…

> You seem to think that the whole world shares your definition of "polite"

Doesn't the opposite hold true? That is, assuming the whole word feels the same way about swear words?

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#133

Post by squigz »

lukas099 wrote: post #119
GJim wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's baffling anybody would think otherwise. Reddit auto-censorship (and such auto censorship elsewhere) has a lot to answer for.

I don't think it's auto-censorship as much as language changing. For me, 'retard' is 99% associated with my friends dissing each other as kids, and 1% associated with 'delay'.

For me, it's mostly associated with being bullied as an autistic child, which might be the actual reason it's come to be seen as a "slur"

Meh. Probably more likely is those damn automod settings on reddit (which aren't, you know, configured by moderators according to what their community wants or anything)

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#134

Post by dp-hackernews »

thfuran wrote: post #77
gspencley wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't personally care about language choices in code, but I'll play devil's advocate and speculate as to why a business might be concerned. 1. Reputational harm in the event that code needs to be shared. Say, the code gets read in court, or an outside consultant is brought in who is given access to the code. The company likely wants to maintain the same standard of professionalism that they expect when their employ…

>The idea that arbitrary sequences of phones or characters will cause anyone within ear or eye-shot to become offended is rather absurd. No more absurd than the notion that a mere sequence of sounds could convey any other meaning or elicit any other response.

If a comedian elicits a laugh from a person - who is at fault if the person laughs, the comedian or the person?

I would argue that the person is at fault. Unless you are suggesting one does not have a choice whether to laugh or not.

If that were true, then all comedians would either be funny, or not funny, for all people. That is simply not the case.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#135

Post by AlexandrB »

Arainach wrote: post #40
holowoodman wrote: post #2

Theory: the shift towards lesser swearwords is a sign of corporatization, making the linux source a soulless bland hellscape of confirmity.

Hopefully in a few decades the last of the people who think that using respectful discourse means no fun can be had will be gone and we can stop rehashing these threads. You're contributing to something that runs on billions of devices across the world and is maintained by people around the world of all types. If you can't describe your code, your reasons, and your notes politely, do better.

> do better

No.

This condescending tone is what really needs to go away. It reminds me of the 90s right-wing, religious puritanism about swears in music and movies just repurposed for a secular audience.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#136

Post by squigz »

wat10000 wrote: post #112
javcasas wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's great that you can do/lead and write professionally. But, in any case, writing professionally shouldn't take priority over doing/leading. Otherwise we wouldn't have the Linux kernel; and I bet the swearing guy behind it got more stuff done and made a bigger difference than the combination of the most effective programmers you have ever met.

False dichotomy. "Writing professionally" is also known as "communicating effectively" and it is part of doing/leading. Linus made an enormous impact, certainly. He'd have had an even bigger impact if he was less of a caustic dick. And before you say that there's a tradeoff involved and that genius technical people are just that way, look up Berkson's paradox.

I'm sure many of us have worked with that type of person who is very good at what they do, but also a massive asshole, and then people put up with it, because, well, that's just part of being a genius (as an aside: this sentiment is often applied to other disciplines too; see, Max Verstappen in F1 or Magnus Carlson in chess.)

I learned long ago that no matter how good they are, it's not worth it.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#137

Post by AlexandrB »

falcor84 wrote: post #107
kps wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do better I find that expression far more offensive than ‘fuck’ or ‘shit’. Similarly (and non-exhaustively): ‘bad take’; ‘not a good look’; ‘this ain't it’; ‘… not the … you think it is’; ‘…, actually’. They're all personal insults. “This code is crap” is fine; “You're crap” is not.

As I see it, there's nothing offensive about "do better" - it's just asking the person to not repeat the same (ostensibly misguided) thing they did before. On the other hand, there's Kratos's “Don't be sorry, be better”, which did hit me hard when I reached that part in God of War 2018. That one hit me on a very personal level.

"Do better" when used in an online debate forecloses discussion. It implies that the one saying "do better" is the authority on what "better" is. What if I disagree?

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#138

Post by jeremyjh »

squigz wrote: post #133
lukas099 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's auto-censorship as much as language changing. For me, 'retard' is 99% associated with my friends dissing each other as kids, and 1% associated with 'delay'.

For me, it's mostly associated with being bullied as an autistic child, which might be the actual reason it's come to be seen as a "slur" Meh. Probably more likely is those damn automod settings on reddit (which aren't, you know, configured by moderators according to what their community wants or anything)

Every "scientific" name for mental disability eventually becomes a slur or name. Idiot and moron were considered proper terms at one point in time. "Retard" was never proper but is easily derived from "mental retardation", which was. In the 80s/90s there was a push to use "special" as a euphemism and it was immediately picked up as a slur, I think both usages have been long-since abandoned as a result.

Autistic is also being used this way but its long-term fate is not so clear to me.

In general euphemisms cannot keep up with bigotry, I rather consider it a lost cause.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#139

Post by gsk22 »

jenny91 wrote: post #122
dhsysusbsjsi wrote: post #99

As an Australian I’m disappointed in the lack of the key word ‘cunt’ in the graph. Unless perhaps it’s zero.

In the US, that is an unthinkably bad swearword for some reason.

That's heavily dependent on regional/cultural factors. Among a younger and (mostly) gayer demographic, the once-feared "C-word" is very commonly used, especially in its adjective form.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#140

Post by [deleted] »

falcor84 wrote: post #107
kps wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do better I find that expression far more offensive than ‘fuck’ or ‘shit’. Similarly (and non-exhaustively): ‘bad take’; ‘not a good look’; ‘this ain't it’; ‘… not the … you think it is’; ‘…, actually’. They're all personal insults. “This code is crap” is fine; “You're crap” is not.

As I see it, there's nothing offensive about "do better" - it's just asking the person to not repeat the same (ostensibly misguided) thing they did before. On the other hand, there's Kratos's “Don't be sorry, be better”, which did hit me hard when I reached that part in God of War 2018. That one hit me on a very personal level.

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