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Vision Language Models Are Biased

vlmsarebiased.github.io

131–140 of 146 posts

Re: Vision Language Models Are Biased

#131
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wasn't one of the questions - any reasonable person would have classified that chicken as an animal, albeit a mutant one. I would also hardly count many of these questions as "tricks" either. Take the chess example. A lot of my friends and myself have been playing chess since we were young children and we all know that a fully populated chess board has 32 pieces (heavily weighted in our internal training data),…

Don't be too literal. Imagine walking to a room an seeing someone grab a handful of chess pieces off of a set-up board, and proceed to fill bags with 4 pieces each. As they fill the 8th bag, they notice only 3 pieces are left. Are you confident that you would respond "I saw the board only had 31 pieces on it when you started", or might you reply "perhaos you dropped a piece on the floor"?

I'm not. I'm referencing the paper - not some hypothetical abstract word problem. Imagine walking into a room, where the pieces are slowly morphing from staid Staunton structures into amorphous blobs of lava lamp Cthulhu nightmares. If a locomotive steam train from Denver passes within 15 meters of the room, how many passengers paid for the tickets using a cashier's check?

Nobody's arguing that humans never take logical shortcuts or that those shortcuts can cause us to make errors.

Some of the rebuttals in this thread are ridiculous. Like what if I forced you to stare at the surface of the sun followed by waterboarding for several hours, and then asked you to look at a 1000 different chess boards. Are you sure you wouldn't make a mistake?

In the paper the various VLLMs are asked to double-check which still didn't make a difference. The argument is more along the lines that VLLMs (and multimodal LLMs) aren't really thinking in the same way that humans do.

And if you REALLY need an example albeit a bit tangential - try this one out. Ask any SOTA (multimodal or otherwise) model such as gpt-image-1, Kontext, Imagen4, etc. for a five-leaf cover. It'll get it about 50% of the time.

Now go and ask any kindergartener for the same thing.

Re: Vision Language Models Are Biased

#132
post #47
post #36

These don't seem much different than asking the chat models to solve common puzzle with slight changes? Saw a hilarious effort of people trying to use them to answer the "crossing a river with a single canoe" style puzzle.

It did really remind me of the early generations of ChatGPT which was really easy to get to tell you that 2 pounds of feathers is the same weight as one pound of iron, because of how often the "riddle" is told with equal weights. They're much, much better at that now.

> They're much, much better at that now.

Because that specific failure case was widely reported on, and subsequent retraining specifically included examples to ensure that the model didn't "overfit" when learning how to answer variants of that question. That doesn't address the underlying issue though -- while it's obvious that these models do "learn" and "generalize" by any reasonable and non-anthrocentric definition of the terms, it really does seem like the 'radiu's of generalization is smaller than we would like, and that these models are very subject to getting stuck in 'ruts' around things they've seen in their training data. Solving this by bandaid-patching every such rut that comes up in the news is just not a viable long-term solution: the whole world is a minefield of niche problems that look kinda like other problems but have different results.

Re: Vision Language Models Are Biased

#133
post #44
post #36

These don't seem much different than asking the chat models to solve common puzzle with slight changes? Saw a hilarious effort of people trying to use them to answer the "crossing a river with a single canoe" style puzzle.

Counting the number of legs on a 3-legged animal is a puzzle? Maybe for a toddler... though I expect even they will see that something is off, and be able to identify what , without considering it a tricky task, even if I don't know at what age you can count to 3

Ish. The catch is we spend a ton of effort on teaching these models to recognize specific things in pictures. Then we ask it to not do that task, but instead count something on the picture. Which, we oddly don't spend a lot of time training the model to do.

It is a lot like the experiment where you ask people to say what color some text is. With the trick where some of the text is the name of another color. Can be surprisingly hard for people that are good at reading.

Re: Vision Language Models Are Biased

#134
post #104

Models are Bias A model is bias, implemented as a collection of statistics that weigh relationships between given tokens. It doesn't deduce or follow logic. It doesn't make or respect categories. It just shows you what in its data set is most familiar to what is in your prompt; where familiarity is defined implicitly by the makeup of the original training corpus, and explicitly by the training weights. We need to sto…

How are you defining “bias”? The definition I’ve found useful (outside of the “the constant term contribution”) is “a tendency to be wrong in an identifiable direction”. But that doesn’t seem to be the definition you are using. So, what do you mean?

That's a biased definition, by it's own definition. ;)

Leave out the part about being wrong, and you will have the gist of what I'm saying. Also leave out the identifiable part: bias exists regardless of whether or not it is recognized.

Bias is how we work with subjectivity. When I answer a question, my answer will be specific to my bias. Without that bias, I could not formulate an answer, unless my answer was the one and only objectively correct way to express an answer to that question.

Computer programs are missing the bias feature. Everything written in a computer program is completely and unambiguously defined, all the way down to the language's foundational grammar.

LLMs are designed to introduce the bias feature. The limitation of this approach is that an LLM replaces the entire stack. None of the features of computation we are used to are compatible with an LLM. You can compute logic or bias, not both.

Re: Vision Language Models Are Biased

#135
post #48
post #32

I disagree with the assertion that "VLMs don't actually see - they rely on memorized knowledge instead of visual analysis". If that were really true, there's no way they would have scored as high as 17%. I think what this shows is that they over-weight their prior knowledge, or equivalently, they don't put enough weight on the possibility that they are being given a trick question. They are clearly biased, but they d…

> Original dog (4 legs): All models get it right Same dog with 5 legs: All models still say "4" They're not counting - they're just recalling "dogs have 4 legs" from their training data. 100% failure because there is no training data about 5-legged dogs. I would bet the accuracy is higher for 3-legged dogs. > Test on counterfactual images Q1: "How many visible stripes?" → "3" (should be "4") Q2: "Count the visible st…

I tried it with GPT-4o, took the 5-legged zebra example from their github and it answered quite well.

"The animal in the image appears to have five visible legs, but this is an illusion caused by the overlapping of legs and motion blur. Zebras, like all equids, only have four legs."

Not perfect, but also doesn't always regress to the usual answer.

"The animal in the image appears to be an elephant, but it has been digitally altered. It visually shows six legs, although the positioning and blending of shadows and feet are unnatural and inconsistent with real anatomy. This is a visual illusion or manipulation." (actually should say five)

"This bird image has also been manipulated. It shows the bird with three legs, which is anatomically impossible for real birds. Normal birds have exactly two legs." (correct)

"Each shoe in the image has four white stripes visible on the side." (correct)

Re: Vision Language Models Are Biased

#136
post #14

FWIW I tried the first couple of examples in ChatGPT 4o and couldn't replicate this. For example: "The animal in the image is a chicken, and it appears to have four legs. However, chickens normally have only two legs. The presence of four legs suggests that the image may have been digitally altered or artificially generated." I don't have a good explanation for why I got different results.

[deleted]

Re: Vision Language Models Are Biased

#137
I agree that models are bad at counting in general, but in this case it could just as easily be ambiguity in the wording of the prompt. The model was shown a 3 legged chicken and asked how many legs "this animal" has. It is reasonable that the model identified a chicken and answered that chickens usually have 2 legs. I would expect the same answer from a human child, adding evidence to my assertion that LLMs are just like toddlers that have read everything on the Internet. They have knowledge but no wisdom.

Re: Vision Language Models Are Biased

#138
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your work usually has 1,000x the exposure and external validation compared to doing it outside those environments, where it would just get discarded and ignored. Not a complain, though. It's a requirement for our world to be the way it is.

Is there truth to this? Do you have any sources to link to on this

Sure dude, here's the link to the UN Resolution about which researchers deserve attention and which others do not, signed by all countries around the world [1].

*sigh*

It's pretty obvious, if you publish something at Harvard, MIT, et. al. you even get a dedicated PR team to make your research stand out.

If you publish that on your own, or on some small research university in Namibia, no one will notice.

I might be lying, though, 'cause there's no "proof".

1: https://tinyurl.com/3uf7r5r7

Re: Vision Language Models Are Biased

#139
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you defining “bias”? The definition I’ve found useful (outside of the “the constant term contribution”) is “a tendency to be wrong in an identifiable direction”. But that doesn’t seem to be the definition you are using. So, what do you mean?

That's a biased definition, by it's own definition. ;) Leave out the part about being wrong, and you will have the gist of what I'm saying. Also leave out the identifiable part: bias exists regardless of whether or not it is recognized. Bias is how we work with subjectivity. When I answer a question, my answer will be specific to my bias. Without that bias, I could not formulate an answer, unless my answer was the on…

When you say that the definition I gave of bias is biased (in the sense I defined), what direction does it have a tendency to be wrong in? I assume by “wrong” you mean “not matching how people use the word”?

To clarify, when I said “identifiable”, I didn’t mean “identified”. I meant “in principle possible to identify”. Like, if you have a classifier between inputs where another thing (the thing being judged for bias) gets right answers and inputs where it gets wrong answers, and this classifier is both substantially simpler than the other thing, and gets a significantly better than chance success rate, and like, there is a human comprehensible thing about the inputs that this classifier is basing things on, then that’s a bias of the thing that is being judged for bias.

_____

Now for your definition:

Ah, I see, so your definition of “bias” is something like “a perspective” (except without anthropomorphizing) . It is something that picks among multiple options in a way that isn’t unambiguously specified by precise rules. (Kind of reminds me of filters/ultrafilters. Probably not actually particularly analogous, but still came to mind. I guess a closer analogy would be the concept of a choice function.)

The issue I have with this definition is that it doesn’t capture the (quite common) usage of “bias” that a “bias” is something which is bad and is to be avoided.

When people say that a process, e.g. a ML program, is “biased against brunettes” (for example) they generally mean this as a criticism of that process. And I think this being a criticism is a major part of what is meant by the word “bias” (in this type of usage of the word, not in the sense of a constant term in an affine map).

I do get that often people say that “everyone has their own biases” and “it is impossible to be unbiased (about [topic])”, and they will sometimes describe their general perspective as a way of warning people about their own biases, and this somewhat fits with the “a bias is a perspective/choice-function “ type definition, but, I think it fails to capture the reason that people mention biases : because they think they can lead to being wrong (either leading to inaccurate conclusions or to unjust/immoral/unfair choices). I don’t think it is just a warning of “I sometimes have to make a choice among several options where there is no canonical right choice, and you might make different such choices”. It is instead a warning to others that one, like everyone else, is fallible, and moreover, that there may be patterns in those failings that one does not perceive (on account of those same failings), but that others, who have different patterns in their failings, might perceive, and, at the same time, things that others might perceive as failings but are not, due to their own failings.

Hm.

But, I do note a shortcoming in my definition that yours doesn’t seem to have: if multiple people who believe that there is no such thing as objective aesthetic quality are talking about the aesthetic qualities of various works, they might sometimes describe their patterns in their aesthetic judgements as “biases”, especially when these patterns are differences in how they judge things aesthetically vs how others (would) judge those things aesthetically. This seems more in line with the definition you gave than in the definition I gave, because such people don’t believe that there is a truth of the matter as to the aesthetic quality of the works, and therefore would not consider the ways they differ to be patterns in being wrong, only in being different (or just in being). Though, I think it seems to have some aspects of both. The definition you gave doesn’t seem to really include the pattern aspect.

____

Still, I think when people complain that a machine learning model is biased, what they mean is usually more like the definition I gave?

____

I noticed another shortcoming in my definition. Sometimes the “bias” that people complain that something has is not really any individual answer/output being wrong, but rather something about there being something wrong/undesirable in the distribution of the outputs. For a simple example, if dice aren’t fair, we call them biased. This could conceivably be more along the lines of the “the constant term in a affine map” sense, but I think people would say the same thing about something that e.g. selects applicants, even if it never picks an applicant that is objectively less preferable over one that is more preferable, if it among equally qualified candidates has a tendency that would be unfair, this is still called a bias even if any individual such choice would be fine. Fixing this would be a small change in phrasing, or perhaps a footnote with clarification that the thing that is “wrong” doesn’t have to be in any individual output.

Re: Vision Language Models Are Biased

#140
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Original dog (4 legs): All models get it right Same dog with 5 legs: All models still say "4" They're not counting - they're just recalling "dogs have 4 legs" from their training data. 100% failure because there is no training data about 5-legged dogs. I would bet the accuracy is higher for 3-legged dogs. > Test on counterfactual images Q1: "How many visible stripes?" → "3" (should be "4") Q2: "Count the visible st…

I tried it with GPT-4o, took the 5-legged zebra example from their github and it answered quite well. "The animal in the image appears to have five visible legs, but this is an illusion caused by the overlapping of legs and motion blur. Zebras, like all equids, only have four legs." Not perfect, but also doesn't always regress to the usual answer. "The animal in the image appears to be an elephant, but it has been di…

It sounds like you ask multiple questions in the same chat thread/conversation. Once it knows that it is facing weird data or wrong in previous answers, it can turn on that "I'm facing manipulated data" mode for next questions. :-)

If you have Memory setting ON, I observe that it sometimes also answers a question based on you prior questions/threads.

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