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Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

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Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#131
post #15
post #5

[flagged]

His wikipedia page suggests otherwise. Raised by a single mother in Guatemala. It doesn't mention why he has a german noble name though. But these don't really allow assumptions about the individual wealth anymore.

He went to private school, which he himself calls a “great privilege” according to his Wikipedia page. He was bought a C64 as a child. How is that not privileged? Did you even read it?

Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#132
post #76

Ah, Duolingo. What lengths people go just to avoid reading a book and talking to people. All this tech and I wonder how many people are now fluent in multiple languages compared to say a few decades ago. This is not academic. All signs are saying we are heading in the wrong direction[1] and more tech ain't going to solve shit. Literacy rates and numerical abilities are going down the drain faster than you can say "Cl…

> What lengths people go just to avoid reading a book and talking to people. odd take, do you have the same negative sentiment for the entire field of language instruction? introductory German class at a local college? 7th grade French ? things like that?

You definitely meet other people in local colleges

Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning a new language to any degree of proficiency requires motivation. It's easy to start and hard to continue if you're not willing to put in the effort. There's a valid argument to be made that gamification helps to provide that motivation, but the argument doesn't hold up if the users aren't actually becoming proficient by using the app. In other words, gamification isn't inherently bad, but their motivations d…

internal motivation means that someones acts without external stimuli, their drive comes from within, its internal. External motivation means that an external stimuli is used to make someone act. I.e. a monetary reward, or validation etc. When someone is internally motivated, they can have a stable state. When external motivation is introduced, it can replace the internal motivation and will. Now what happens when yo…

Replacing intrinsic motivation with extrinsic rewards cheapens the activity and makes it less enjoyable. Awarding me badges for brushing my teeth and taking out the trash is a great way to help me do boring tasks. Awarding me badges for having deep, meaningful conversations with my partner . . . not so helpful. Alfie Kohn has collected decades of studies and written about that in his book Punished by Rewards. It's one of the books I try to give away to friends and coworkers who are interested in the subject. The pro-gamification folks seem to want to pretend that they're doing something totally different this time and they can ignore all the previous data.

https://www.alfiekohn.org/topics/motivation-inside/

Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#134
post #8

Their comments cemented to me that they have no long term value. If the ceo of Duolingo thinks AI will teach me a language then I’ll use a low cost LLM to get there without Duolingo.

I've noticed that a strong thread of the hacker community, including HN and the guys who wrote GNU and linux, are extremely cheap . Like, you'd rather write a product clone yourself than pay $15/month for the official product. Why is this? What's with the inherent stinginess?

> you'd rather write a product clone yourself than pay $15/month for the official product

Because when you write it yourself, you can share it with others. Those others can then build on what you did or use it themselves.

Not everything needs to be a transaction - some people just want to make the world slightly better without asking for anything in return.

Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#135

Anyone who doesn't think that AI is going to disrupt everything in software hasn't watched as software ate the rest of the world. this is the latest iteration.

AI will change everything but the companies trying to adapt like Duolingo or Shopify are doing will become the new Yahoos and Nokias.

Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#136

Ah, Duolingo. What lengths people go just to avoid reading a book and talking to people. All this tech and I wonder how many people are now fluent in multiple languages compared to say a few decades ago. This is not academic. All signs are saying we are heading in the wrong direction[1] and more tech ain't going to solve shit. Literacy rates and numerical abilities are going down the drain faster than you can say "Cl…

Duolingo is for getting to an A2 level. It’s hard for most people to get much value from trying to read a book or talk with someone unless they’re at least at A2 level

Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#137

My wife quit Duolingo the week before this announcement after years of watching Duolingo prioritize attention manipulation over learning. She had a nearly 6-year streak and was on the paid version at the time, but realized that it wasn't actually helping her learn any more: she'd at some point begun maintaining a streak just for the sake of maintaining a streak. The best documentation for Duolingo's decline is this a…

This isn't my field, but I can imagine it is hard to optimize for learning only since the reward signal is clearly user engagement (meaning subscription revenue). Finding a reward signal that does both, help people learn -and- make money is hard. I am a Duolingo user and I definitely notice the gamification but I really don't know how it would be done better since that gets people engaged in an activity that is assoc…

Why education should be done for maximal profit? Oh the poor CEO, he just wants to bring more value to shareholders! Clearly folks are fed up with eventual inevitable result.

Things like education or healthcare shouldnt be privatized, since that always eventually ends up as profit-first game. The product suffers since milking is obvious, and quality of service is at best secondary concern.

Is is really that hard to see all this?

Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning a new language to any degree of proficiency requires motivation. It's easy to start and hard to continue if you're not willing to put in the effort. There's a valid argument to be made that gamification helps to provide that motivation, but the argument doesn't hold up if the users aren't actually becoming proficient by using the app. In other words, gamification isn't inherently bad, but their motivations d…

I disagree with this in principle. Gamification is something we should be very wary of because it is inherently bad. It reduces what you care about in an activity to points and a progress bar. Instead of sticking with language learning because you have some intrinsic reason to want to learn it (or even a external one such as wanting a new job) you're substituting that with whatever Duolingo puts for their gamificatio…

Why do people prefer games over hard work while learning? Because this is how we used to naturally learn.

Kids having fun playing hide and seek? Wrestling and throwing stones? They are learning hunting/survival skills.

Today with more abstract knowledge needed it is harder, but the concept of making abstract learning a game again, is a very smart one in general. It of course fails, if engagement becomes the metric and not gaining knowledge.

Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#139
post #136

Ah, Duolingo. What lengths people go just to avoid reading a book and talking to people. All this tech and I wonder how many people are now fluent in multiple languages compared to say a few decades ago. This is not academic. All signs are saying we are heading in the wrong direction[1] and more tech ain't going to solve shit. Literacy rates and numerical abilities are going down the drain faster than you can say "Cl…

Duolingo is for getting to an A2 level. It’s hard for most people to get much value from trying to read a book or talk with someone unless they’re at least at A2 level

That's bad news for the millions that had to do just that and learned fine in fact better. I'm not saying you should read the Upanishads in the original, I'm saying a proper intro textbook is fine and some teacher-figure ("human") to actually use your body and read theirs.

Heck, Latin even has a Latin-only method: LLPSI. "Roma in Italia est", you'll figure it out quickly enough.

Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot imagine being the CEO of a software company and proudly proclaiming that some other software — which we do not make and can easily be had very cheap or for free— is better fit for purpose than what we’ve been able to accomplish in over a decade with almost a thousand employees, and expecting that to impress investors or users or both. Like that would be like the Chipotle CEO proudly announcing that they’re f…

Chipotle already doesn't manufacture the vast majority of their ingredients. Their business consists of delivering supplier-originated ingredients to a standardized storefront in your city and consistently assembling them into a quality burrito, with small amounts of prep work for things which can't be consistently sourced locally and in-store cooking for things which must be prepared fresh. I don't know where people…

You make a good point. Chipotle sources locally, cooks things in-store and sells fresh things, none of which are things that any Taco Bell does, so it would really be funny for them to announce that they are switching to being a place that puts Chipotle wrappers on Taco Bell food rather than what they have an established reputation for doing.
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