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Ancient law requires a bale of straw to hang from Charing Cross rail bridge

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Re: Ancient law requires a bale of straw to hang from Charing Cross rail bridge

#131

Post by guerrilla »

fsckboy wrote: post #78
eleveriven wrote: post #70

Like a bit of medieval cosplay sneaking into modern infrastructure work. A tiny reminder that history isn’t just in museums... it's literally hanging off our bridges.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topping_out#History the practice of "topping out" a new building can be traced to the ancient Scandinavian religious rite of placing a tree atop a new building to appease the tree-dwelling spirits displaced in its construction... The practice remains common in the United Kingdom and assorted Commonwealth countries such as Australia[7] and Canada,[8] as well as Germany, Austria, Slovenia,…

> to appease the tree-dwelling spirits displaced in its construction.

It seems not:

> A Scandinavian tradition of hoisting a pine tree to the top of framed out buildings had a more functional purpose: when the pine needles fell off, the builders knew the wood frame below had cured/dried out so they could enclose the building.[2]

Re: Ancient law requires a bale of straw to hang from Charing Cross rail bridge

#132

Post by red_admiral »

walthamstow wrote: post #98
red_admiral wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delays due to trucks striking bridges are a worldwide problem, at least in countries with railroads. Despite yellow black striped reflective panels and height warning signs and sometimes height detectors that trigger flashing red lights. Perhaps we should try a bale of straw next. The London Blackwall tunnel has a more modern take on checking height: https://maps.app.goo.gl/b5P5Td1hsuSjLU3w8 traffic signals, barriers…

Your link shows the Dartford Crossing, an M25 bridge miles downstream of the City. The Blackwall Tunnel runs under the Thames at Greenwich and afaik just has the old school hanging metal blocks at height https://maps.app.goo.gl/N5xSF148ggLVTDtS8 It doesn't surprise me too much that police are on standby, a closure of either tunnel or bridge has a major effect on traffic all over London

You're right of course.

Blackwall seems also to have two sets of lights and barriers, and an off-ramp in between. That's probably for fire safety too to close and evacuate the tunnel and get the emergency services in, but I imagine it's used for height detection too if a loud CLUNK on your truck cabin isn't enough.

As an aside, the person who signed the original heights as (13ft)(4m)(9ft)(2.8m) needs to learn a bit about UI design. Yes, two lanes, but the gap between the central two signs is far smaller than to the other sign for the same lane. Also 4m is just over 13 ft 1 inch, which there'd be space to include as there's already a 0 on the leftmost sign (and from the rightmost we see that decimals are allowed on signs). Guess we're going to rely on the CLUNK after all.

Re: Ancient law requires a bale of straw to hang from Charing Cross rail bridge

#133

Post by red_admiral »

peteri wrote: post #128
walthamstow wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your link shows the Dartford Crossing, an M25 bridge miles downstream of the City. The Blackwall Tunnel runs under the Thames at Greenwich and afaik just has the old school hanging metal blocks at height https://maps.app.goo.gl/N5xSF148ggLVTDtS8 It doesn't surprise me too much that police are on standby, a closure of either tunnel or bridge has a major effect on traffic all over London

There are additional traffic lights on the blackwall tunnel further in and a slip road out that can be used for overheight vehicles. I do remember having a 10-15 minute wait once while they sorted things out when a lorry driver got caught. I'd have a feeling there are automated signs prior to the tunnel (or at least used to be) but I've not been through the tunnel for a year or so and things will have changed with th…

I presume the Blackwall one is that unlit LED sign just at the start of the off-ramp. Then there's another set of height detectors on the same post to catch out anyone who's still not paying attention.

I question who approved that the main lanes ahead of your link have 2.8m/9ft limits but the police warning says vehicles over 4m/13ft will be stopped. Can I take my 10ft truck through or not?

I'm starting to feel a tiny bit of sympathy for drivers that get confused by this.

Re: Ancient law requires a bale of straw to hang from Charing Cross rail bridge

#134

Post by prewett »

shakna wrote: post #69
makeitdouble wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religion is notably harder to change than country laws.

The hundreds of Protestant sects all cried out in anguish. The Hindu cults just rolled their eyes. Most religions are relatively flexible around beliefs. It tends to be particular sects that aren't... But they don't speak for the rest.

I think you're conflating religious beliefs with ethics. You can't have a religion that is flexible on beliefs, otherwise it is not a religion, but the actual core religious beliefs are fairly limited. In Christianity, Jesus dying to reconcile the world to God is the whole point; without that it is something else. The whole point of Buddhism is that all emotions are pain, and that realizing that everything really nothing (since all composable things are impermanent and everything is composed) is the path to nirvana. All the other beliefs and ethics come out of this.

But even "submarine" religions (ones that people do not think of as a religion) follow the pattern. Communists worship the State (or perhaps the Party), because the problem with society is the structure of society, so only the State can bring the salvation of equity. American Progressives worship sexual identity. Progressives are flexible--except if you don't accept a particular identity, think that gender is not malleable, refuse to use pronouns, etc.

However, I think even "most religions" are not very flexible. 50% of the world's population are either Christian or Islam, and both are pretty prescriptive in the ethics.

Re: Ancient law requires a bale of straw to hang from Charing Cross rail bridge

#135

Post by gjm11 »

alexbilbie wrote: post #49
maratc wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The BBC also didn't call it "ancient," which would be questionable considering that the law is from 2012.

Its an ancient practise, codified into law in 2012 when the regulatory framework was re-codified from multiple laws like Port of London Act 1908 as well as time immemorial acts like this.

Fun fact: in English law "time immemorial" has a very specific meaning: it means "any time before 1189". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_immemorial for more.

Re: Ancient law requires a bale of straw to hang from Charing Cross rail bridge

#136

Post by krick »

w0de0 wrote: post #102

This is treated as a whimsical absurdity, but it has a practical purpose that’s hardly obviated by the antiquity of the law. I’m a sailor myself - I’d certainly want a warning that a bridge is lower than its charted height. The signal is clearly listed in the relevant Port of London notice to mariners [0]. Moreover, the signal also shows the height of the restriction (and in a neat, safe way - nudge the straw and you…

Maybe when this was invented, the bundle of straw was the best they could do, I don't know, but surely today you can produce a more visible, more robust, reusable and, ironically, cheaper sign than that.

Re: Ancient law requires a bale of straw to hang from Charing Cross rail bridge

#137

Post by treis »

wirrbel wrote: post #117
wisty wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US. There are vague rights in the constitution. It could be a disaster for the courts to interpret them too literally (Is literally any weapon OK in the 2nd? Does free speech include a mob boss ordering a hit?) and constitutions are really hard to amend, so heavy interpretation is a nessessary evil.

That is an interesting example because the second amendment is I think a primary example of a law that is very creatively read by folks that consider themselves literalists. if the 2nd amendmend was literally interpreted it would be (quoting from memory) “in order to form a well-ordered militia the right to bear arms shall not be infringed” As in you cannot infringe the right to bear arms in a well ordered militia, b…

Your memory is a bit off. The text is:

>A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

It's the only amendment that comes with a justification so it's unusual but there's nothing in the text that limits the right to the listed justification.

Re: Ancient law requires a bale of straw to hang from Charing Cross rail bridge

#138

Post by TRiG_Ireland »

zeristor wrote: post #88
rustcleaner wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If there's a law, no matter how ancient, the British should comply. If a law needs to be changed, that's the Parliament's job. If that's not religion, I don't know what is...

There’s a word for that sort of thing, it just happens to be: antidisestablishmentarianism That is for the removal of the Church of England as the religion of England, but it’s along those lines.

You have one too many negative prefixes there. The Church of England is already established. Those who want to remove that status are proposing disestablishment. Antidisestablishmentarianism is the desire to maintain the status quo.

Re: Ancient law requires a bale of straw to hang from Charing Cross rail bridge

#139

Post by TRiG_Ireland »

potato3732842 wrote: post #15
sandworm101 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sunset? So that after a few years people can do work on bridges without having to put up warnings? In a modern context, we wouldn't sunset a law saying that traffic lights be green and red, even though maybe in a few years we might want orange and pink. You dont mess around with safety warning standards.

If the law is actually valuable and there is political capital for its continuation then surely the legislative body can vote to extend it with minimal fuss.

What you're suggesting is that if the government is dysfunctional, useful safety standards get abolished. That seems counterproductive.

Re: Ancient law requires a bale of straw to hang from Charing Cross rail bridge

#140

Post by TRiG_Ireland »

potato3732842 wrote: post #50
philipwhiuk wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I think you've unintentionally created a great example of how and why public discourse and lawmaking are so broken. You invoke "safety" in the same manner that peddlers of all sorts of evil invoke terrorism or think of the children and then you cap it off with a straw man, as if there's serious money to be made with or without this mundane and niche law or comparable ones. Bridge height postings more or less stand on…

I think you'll find that this law does not originally come from the state. It comes from local river authorities, perhaps under the Port of London Authority.
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