Earlier quoted context omitted.
The word "topology" has a legitimate dictionary definition, that has none of the requirements that you're asserting. I think what you're missing is that it has two definitions.
In blog posts about specialised and technical topics it is expected that in-domain technical keywords that have long established definitions and meanings be used in the same technical sense. Otherwise it can become quite confusing. Gravity means gravity when we are talking Newtonian mechanics. Similarly, in math and ML 'topology' has a specific meaning.
Deep Learning Is Applied Topology
131–140 of 200 posts
Re: Deep Learning Is Applied Topology
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you talking about reasoning in general, reasoning qua that mental process which operates on (representations of) propositions? In which case, I cannot understand " true reasoning is expressed in terms of probabilities, not axioms " One of the features of reasoning is that it does not operate in this way. It's highly implausible animals would have been endowed with no ability to operate non-probabilistically on pr…
Propositions are just predictions, they all come with some level of uncertainty even if we ignore that uncertainty for practical purposes. Any validation of a theory is inherently statistical, as you must sample your environment with some level of precision across spacetime, and that level of precision correlates to the known accuracy of hypotheses. In other words, we can create axiomatic systems of logic, but ultima…
A proposition is not a prediction. A prediction is either an estimate of the value of some quantity ("the dumb ML meaning of prediction") or a proposition which describes a future scenario. We can trivially enumerate propositions that do not describe future scenarios, eg., 2 + 2 = 4.
Uncertainty is a property of belief attitudes towards propositions, it isn't a feature of their semantic content. A person doesnt mean anything different by "2 + 2 = 4" if they are 80 or 90% sure of it.
> We can't even physically prove that.
Irrelevant. Our minds are not constrained by physical possibility, necessarily so, as we know very little about what is physically possible. I can imagine abitary number of cases, arising out of logical manipulation of propositons, that are not physically possible. (Eg., "Superman can lift any building. The empire state building is so-and-so a kind of building. Imagine(Superman lifting the empire state building)").
The infinite variety of our imagination is a trivial consequence of non-probabilistic operations on propositions, it's incomprehensibly implausible as a consequence of merely probabilistic ones.
That nature seems to have endowed minds with discrete operations, that these are empirical in operation across very wide classes of reasoning, including imagination, that these seem trivial for nature to provide (etc.) render the notion that they don't exist highly highly implausible.
There is nothing lacking explanation here. The relevant mental processes we have to hand are fairly obvious and fairly easy to explain.
Its an obvious act of credulity to try and find some way to make the latest trinkets of the recent rich some sort of miracle. All of these projects of "incredible abstraction" follow around these hype cycles, turning lead into gold: if x "is really" y, and y "is really" z, and ..., then x is amazin! This piles towers of every more general hollowed-out words on top of each other until the most trivial thing sounds like a wonder.
Re: Deep Learning Is Applied Topology
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
The word "topology" has a legitimate dictionary definition, that has none of the requirements that you're asserting. I think what you're missing is that it has two definitions.
The phrase "applied X" invokes the technical, scientific, or academic meaning of X. So for example, "applied chemistry" does not refer to one's experience on a dating app.
Re: Deep Learning Is Applied Topology
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks for the follow up. I've been following your circuits thread for several years now. I find the linear representation hypothesis very compelling, and I have a draft of a review for Toy Models of Superposition sitting in my notes. Circuits I find less compelling, since the analysis there feels very tied to the transformer architecture in specific, but what do I know. Re linear representation hypothesis, surely it…
> Circuits I find less compelling, since the analysis there feels very tied to the transformer architecture in specific, but what do I know. I don't think circuits is specific to transformers? Our work in the Transformer Circuits thread often is, but the original circuits work was done on convolutional vision models ( https://distill.pub/2020/circuits/ ) > Re linear representation hypothesis, surely it depends on the…
O neat, I haven't read that far back. Will add it to the reading list.
To flesh this out a bit, part of why I find circuits less compelling is because it seems intuitive to me that neural networks more or less smoothly blend 'process' and 'state'. As an intuition pump, a vector x matrix matmul in an MLP can be viewed as changing the basis of an input vector (ie the weights act as a process) or as a way to select specific pieces of information from a set of embedding rows (ie the weights act as state).
There are architectures that try to separate these out with varying degrees of success -- LSTMs and ResNets seem to have a more clear throughline of 'state' with various 'operations' that are applied to that state in sequence. But that seems really architecture-dependent.
I will openly admit though that I am very willing to be convinced by the circuits paradigm. I have a background in molecular bio and there's something very 'protein pathways' about it.
> Linear representations aren't necessarily in tension with the manifold hypothesis.
True! I suppose I was thinking about a 'strong' form of linear representations, which is something like: features are represented by linear combinations of neurons that display the same repulsion-geometries as observed in Toy Models, but that's not what you're saying / that's me jumping a step too far.
> GANs/VAEs/etc modeling things as a latent gaussian space is actually way more natural if you allow superposition
Superposition is one of those things that has always been so intuitive to me that I can't imagine it not being a part of neural network learning.
But I want to make sure I'm getting my terminology right -- why does superposition necessarily require the linear representation hypothesis? Or, to be more specific, does [individual neurons being used in combination with other neurons to represent more features than neurons] necessarily require [features are linear compositions of neurons]?
Re: Deep Learning Is Applied Topology
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you talking about reasoning in general, reasoning qua that mental process which operates on (representations of) propositions? In which case, I cannot understand " true reasoning is expressed in terms of probabilities, not axioms " One of the features of reasoning is that it does not operate in this way. It's highly implausible animals would have been endowed with no ability to operate non-probabilistically on pr…
I suspect, as a layperson who watches people make decisions all the time, that somewhere in our mind is a "certainty checker". We don't do logic itself, we just create logic from certainty as part of verbal reasoning. It's our messy internal inference of likelihoods that causes us to pause and think, or dash forward with confidence, and convincing others is the only place we need things like "theorems". This is the o…
This naive cynicism about our mental capacities is a product of this credulity about statistical AI. If one beings with an earnest study of animal intelligence, in order to describe it, it disappears. It's exactly and only a project of the child playing with his lego, certain that great engineering projects have little use for any more than stacking bricks.
Re: Deep Learning Is Applied Topology
#136Re: Deep Learning Is Applied Topology
#137Data doesn't actually live on a manifold. It's an approximation used for thinking about data. Near total majority, if not 100%, of the useful things done in deep learning have come from not thinking about topology in any way. Deep learning is not applied anything, it's an empirical field advanced mostly by trial and error and, sure, a few intuitions coming from theory (that was not topology).
I say this as someone who has been in deep learning for over a decade now: this is pretty wrong, both on the merits (data obviously lives on a manifold) and on its applications to deep learning (cf chris olah's blog as an example from 2014, which is linked in my post -- https://colah.github.io/posts/2014-03-NN-Manifolds-Topology/ ). Embedding spaces are called 'spaces' for a reason. GANs, VAEs, contrastive losses --…
Re: Deep Learning Is Applied Topology
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
In blog posts about specialised and technical topics it is expected that in-domain technical keywords that have long established definitions and meanings be used in the same technical sense. Otherwise it can become quite confusing. Gravity means gravity when we are talking Newtonian mechanics. Similarly, in math and ML 'topology' has a specific meaning.
The word "topology" is quite commonly used in all kinds of books, papers, and technical materials any time they're discussing geometric characteristics of surfaces. The term is probably used 1000000 times more commonly in this more generic way than it's ever used in the strict pedantic way you're asserting that it must.
Dogs have fur. Dogs are an example of a furry animal. But dogs and furs are not the same thing although they may appear in the same text often.
Topology is a traditional as well as an active branch of applied and pure mathematics, well, Physics too.
It has tons of text books printed on it, has several active journals and conferences dealing with it. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Topology&sprefix=topology+%2Caps%...
Surprise, surprise ...not ...has an extensive Wikipedia page.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology
Math magazines for high schoolers have articles on it. Colleges offer multiple courses on it. Some of those courses would be mandatory for a degree in even undergrad mathematics.
If one wants to do graduate studies then one can do a Masters or a PhD in Topology, well in one of it's many branches.
It's also not a new kid on the block. It goes back to ... analysis situs ... further back to Leibniz, although it began to crystalize formally after Poincare.
If someone wants to use the phrase 'differential calculus' to mean something else in their love letters and sweet nothings, that's absolutely fine :) but in Maths (and Machine Learning, well, with quality of peer reviewing this might soon be iffy) it has a well established and unambiguous meaning.
Note because of its shared beginning at the feet of Leibniz, comparing it with calculus is not an unfair comparison.
Re: Deep Learning Is Applied Topology
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
I suspect, as a layperson who watches people make decisions all the time, that somewhere in our mind is a "certainty checker". We don't do logic itself, we just create logic from certainty as part of verbal reasoning. It's our messy internal inference of likelihoods that causes us to pause and think, or dash forward with confidence, and convincing others is the only place we need things like "theorems". This is the o…
People are only mushy in their verbalised reasoning, because its the nature of such reasoning to handle hard cases. Animal cognition, at its basic levels, is incredibly refined and makes necessary use of logic, flawlessly, frequently. This naive cynicism about our mental capacities is a product of this credulity about statistical AI. If one beings with an earnest study of animal intelligence, in order to describe it,…
Logical propositions ("2+2=4 regardless of my certainty about it") seem a long way from necessary or sufficient to survival for animals. A fuzzy heatmap of "where is prey going" or "How many prey over there" is much closer to necessary and sufficient. The fact that measurements or senses can update those estimates is a long way from a logical deduction.
Something more like probability factor graph can do it, without the pernicious use of "concepts" or too much need for implication, which is sticky and overly rigorous.
That's all I have to say, and I doubt we'll find middle ground.
Re: Deep Learning Is Applied Topology
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Circuits I find less compelling, since the analysis there feels very tied to the transformer architecture in specific, but what do I know. I don't think circuits is specific to transformers? Our work in the Transformer Circuits thread often is, but the original circuits work was done on convolutional vision models ( https://distill.pub/2020/circuits/ ) > Re linear representation hypothesis, surely it depends on the…
> the original circuits work was done on convolutional vision models O neat, I haven't read that far back. Will add it to the reading list. To flesh this out a bit, part of why I find circuits less compelling is because it seems intuitive to me that neural networks more or less smoothly blend 'process' and 'state'. As an intuition pump, a vector x matrix matmul in an MLP can be viewed as changing the basis of an inpu…
Note this happens in "uniform superposition". In reality, we're almost certainly in very non-uniform superposition.
One key term to look for is "feature manifolds" or "multi-diemsnional features". Some discussion here: https://transformer-circuits.pub/2024/july-update/index.html...
(Note that the term "strong linear representation" is becoming a term of art in the literature referring to the idea that all features are linear, rather than just most or some.)
> I want to make sure I'm getting my terminology right -- why does superposition necessarily require the linear representation hypothesis? Or, to be more specific, does [individual neurons being used in combination with other neurons to represent more features than neurons] necessarily require [features are linear compositions of neurons]?
When you say "individual neurons being used in combination with other neurons to represent more features than neurons", that's a way one might _informally_ talk about superposition, but doesn't quite capture the technical nuance. So it's hard to know the full scope of what you intend. All kinds of crazy things are possible if you allow non-linear features, and it's not necessarily clear what a feature would mean.
Superposition, in the narrow technical sense of exploiting compressed sensing / high-dimensional spaces, requires linear representations and sparsity.