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For $595, you get what nobody else can give you for twice the price (1982) [pdf]

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Re: For $595, you get what nobody else can give you for twice the price (1982) [pdf]

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here, but never heard of assembly until college. How did you learn it? I don't think anything but a Basic manual came in the box.

I had a Radio Shack Color Computer and Radio Shack actually sold a ROM cartridge (right alongside all the game cartridges) that was an editor/assembler. That's how I got started in assembler. The manual that came with it covered using the assembler itself but only had a minimal overview of 6809 CPU assembly language. Pretty strange that you could pick up an assembly language IDE at your local Radio Shack store (with…

Those reference cards are very helpful. In college the embedded PC boards (generic) x86 and (I forget if it was a 68 or 65 series CPU) each included a CPU manual and quick assembly reference card. Seeing instructions grouped by how the decoder wanted them, it was much easier to see where a given entry would have 3 or 4 bits utilized to decode a sub function among a general class of instructions.

Sadly I couldn't find a good link to a quick reference card, but there are some copies of the CPU manual on https://archive.org/search?query=6809 . A Wikipedia site is nowhere near as good as a properly typeset and slightly grouped to convey clarity card, but it's still useful https://github.com/Ta0uf19/Motorola-6809-Cheatsheet

Re: For $595, you get what nobody else can give you for twice the price (1982) [pdf]

#133
post #19

I was just a little kid then, and the C64 was a neat micro, but today I can see some questionable things about their comparison matrix in the ad. Obviously, they are comparing to only the high-end competitors (e.g., Atari 800 but not the 400, and no TI 99/4A which also used their own chips like Commodore touted as a selling point, nor the TRS-80 Color Computer that was intended for home use unlike the Model III busin…

I don't know what "'Smart' Peripherals" are. They are computers…for example the C64’s floppy drive had its own CPU. This was also typical for printers…in fact it still is.

it had its own CPU which made it more expensive and much slower than Wozniak's drive for Apple.

Re: For $595, you get what nobody else can give you for twice the price (1982) [pdf]

#134

> Cartridge Slot: Will accept games and other applications designed for Commodore 64 or Max Machine™ on plug-in cartridges. Wait, the what now? Now I’m off to learn what a Max Machine is.

https://web.archive.org/web/20240522205952/http://www.zimmer...

Re: For $595, you get what nobody else can give you for twice the price (1982) [pdf]

#135

Fun fact: adjusted for inflation, that's equivalent to $2,017.82 in today's money [0] [0] https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=595&year1=1982...

Strange to realize that that's cost of a modern top-end workstation - a reminder that even after correcting for inflation, the absolute cost of technology has decreased significantly.

Re: For $595, you get what nobody else can give you for twice the price (1982) [pdf]

#136

As I searched for a first computer I hoped to talk my parents into buying for my late-teen self, I read a lot of early computer magazines and visited local stores. I looked first at the Atari 400 and loved the games but, wanting to learn programming too, I just couldn't imagine that membrane keyboard being livable. Then I saw the C64, fell in love and went home from the store clutching the same color brochure linked…

Thanks for taking the time to write that! I really enjoyed hearing about your journey, and I learned a fair bit about the Coco too, which wasn’t really known in my part of the world. Sounds like a great little machine, actually!

> Sounds like a great little machine, actually!

Yes, it was quite decent and attracted a strong community of advanced hobbyists who were attracted by the 6809 CPU's power. The Coco had quite a lot of third-party hardware upgrades made by hobbyist garage companies and by leveraging these it could be inexpensively upgraded to quite a nice system, much like the Apple II's expansion capability - except the Coco had no internal slots so we had to solder wires to chip pins (another good learning lesson :-)).

Radio Shack wasn't really a full computer company like Atari, Commodore, Apple, Sinclair, etc. They were primarily an electronics retailer who did their own manufacturing to drive down costs but only dabbled in original computer design. While they did a few somewhat unique designs like the Model 1, 2, 3, 4 series of 6502 machines, they tended to stick close to designs based on off-the-shelf chip manufacturer parts and didn't often do custom chips. Some of their computers were even private label rebrands of other manufacturer's computers, like the Model 100/200 and all the Pocket Computers.

Because of this, Radio Shack's Color Computer was a straight off-the-shelf implementation of Motorola's 6809 system reference design - and Motorola had no cool graphics hardware support in their 6847 video chip. However, the upside of no GFX hardware was all that money went to the CPU which was two to three times more expensive than the 6502 or Z80. In fact, Woz wanted to use the 6809's earlier ancestor the 6800 in the Apple I but they were far too expensive at the time. Many don't know that most of the team that created the 6502 actually worked at Motorola designing the 6800 but were frustrated that when visiting customers all they heard was "Great chip, way too expensive" so they left and founded MOSTEK to create a cheaper, less powerful 6800 clone. Their first CPU, the 6501, was actually compatible with the 6800 but Motorola sued them so they changed it enough to be incompatible and called it the 6502. Due in part to the lawsuit sapping their resources, MOSTEK started running out of money before completing the 6502 and that's how Commodore was able to buy their own chip company at a good discount.

The UK had the very similar Dragon 32 and 64 computers (and I have both!). They had the same hardware design but included a hardware serial port chip instead of a software bit-banger port. Software was mostly compatible between the Coco and Dragons as they used the same ROM-based Extended Color BASIC licensed from Microsoft. Dragons were also sold in Spain for a while and very briefly in the US by another company Dragon licensed. I think there was also a Coco-alike in Australia but can't recall the name. I don't think of these systems as Coco clones because they were all based on the same Motorola reference design and Microsoft ROM BASIC, which Motorola created to drive sales of their 6809 chip family (6883 system controller, 6847 display chip and 6821 UART).

Re: For $595, you get what nobody else can give you for twice the price (1982) [pdf]

#137

Fun fact: adjusted for inflation, that's equivalent to $2,017.82 in today's money [0] [0] https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=595&year1=1982...

Strange to realize that that's cost of a modern top-end workstation - a reminder that even after correcting for inflation, the absolute cost of technology has decreased significantly.

You can buy a pretty good computer for US$2000, but a "top end" workstation today would be something like a maxed out Mac Studio or a Windows PC with a RTX 6000 in it, in which case you're paying more like US$10,000.

Re: For $595, you get what nobody else can give you for twice the price (1982) [pdf]

#138
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The disk drive uses a serial protocol and it actually has 8k of RAM and a 6502 CPU. There's no drive controller in the C64, you send serial commands to the drive and it answers. Due to a hardware bug on the CIA on the 64, the protocol is much slower than it should, which was corrected in later computers, but they messed up with the graphics and a bunch of stuff.

Actually, the hardware bug was in the VIC-20's 6522 VIA; the CIA 6526 shift register fixes the bug. The (chief) problem on the 64 was the VIC-II stealing processor cycles.

The CIA 6526 shift register on the C64 is not used. Because the trace on the pcb that connected to it was accidentally cut by the board partner, and Tramiel was unwilling to take the time needed for the rework.

C64 uses the same very slow bit-banging method as VIC-20.

Re: For $595, you get what nobody else can give you for twice the price (1982) [pdf]

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a Radio Shack Color Computer and Radio Shack actually sold a ROM cartridge (right alongside all the game cartridges) that was an editor/assembler. That's how I got started in assembler. The manual that came with it covered using the assembler itself but only had a minimal overview of 6809 CPU assembly language. Pretty strange that you could pick up an assembly language IDE at your local Radio Shack store (with…

Those reference cards are very helpful. In college the embedded PC boards (generic) x86 and (I forget if it was a 68 or 65 series CPU) each included a CPU manual and quick assembly reference card. Seeing instructions grouped by how the decoder wanted them, it was much easier to see where a given entry would have 3 or 4 bits utilized to decode a sub function among a general class of instructions. Sadly I couldn't find…

Here's a PDF that's identical to my Motorola 6809 Quick Reference Card: https://web.archive.org/web/20190714001537/http://chiclassic...

Re: For $595, you get what nobody else can give you for twice the price (1982) [pdf]

#140
post #35

It's interesting to see with the benefit of hindsight, combined with the features that they chose to highlight. The First table clearly pitches the computer as a workhorse more than a game machine. When it came down to it, the thing that really mattered for most work cases was simply how much readable text can you display at once. Colour, and sound were nice, but couldn't compete with just the ability to show informa…

I had no idea about the CP/M option. I’ve never heard of anybody actually running CP/M on a C64.

Same. I played with the CP/M boot disk that came with my C128 later. That was fun for a few hours. Then I went back to not knowing it existed.
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