Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

massivesci.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 465 posts

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#131

Post by hinkley »

armchairhacker wrote: post #40

Good code doesn’t just solve a problem, it solves it in a way that’s readable and modular. I think the problem-solving part of coding requires math skills, while the organization part requires writing skills. The organization part affects the problem-solving part, because if you write messy code (that you can’t reread once you forget or extend without rewriting) you’ll quickly get overwhelmed. Writing large math proo…

The problem with doing things right the first time is some people look at it and just say, “well of course it should work that way.” Yes but did you think of doing it that way?

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#132

Post by switchbak »

zahlman wrote: post #62
armchairhacker wrote: post #40

Good code doesn’t just solve a problem, it solves it in a way that’s readable and modular. I think the problem-solving part of coding requires math skills, while the organization part requires writing skills. The organization part affects the problem-solving part, because if you write messy code (that you can’t reread once you forget or extend without rewriting) you’ll quickly get overwhelmed. Writing large math proo…

> Whereas programming has more “small steps”: even someone who’s not smart (but has grit) can write an impressive program, if they write one component at a time and there aren’t too many components that rely on each other. ... In my experience, learning to write one component at a time (and try the code, and make sure it works before proceeding) is itself a skill that many struggle to develop. Similarly for avoiding…

I mean - not "absolutely everyone" can learn to do just about anything. There's a wide distribution of intelligence, aptitude/ability and desire amongst folks amongst all of the various things that you might learn (not to mention learning disabilities, impairments, etc).

I might be capable of learning advanced accounting, but that sounds like torture to me and I'll be damned if I'll ever take that on! I'm sure programming feels like that to a wide variety of people, and I don't see any need for us to try to pretend otherwise - outside of a bizarre ideological desire for equivalent outcomes from disparate groups.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#133

Post by hinkley »

QuercusMax wrote: post #59
armchairhacker wrote: post #40

Good code doesn’t just solve a problem, it solves it in a way that’s readable and modular. I think the problem-solving part of coding requires math skills, while the organization part requires writing skills. The organization part affects the problem-solving part, because if you write messy code (that you can’t reread once you forget or extend without rewriting) you’ll quickly get overwhelmed. Writing large math proo…

Most coding doesn't need much of any math past boolean logic and very basic set operations. I'm much more likely to spend my time studying DB and interface schemas to understand how something works than doing a lot of mathy fiddling. Sure, some people write game engines and such, but even much of 3D graphics doesn't need anything more complicated than the first half of a linear algebra course.

Boolean logic and set theory are very important to computer logic, and graph theory is not far behind. But you can also learn Boolean logic in the philosophy dept. Which I unfortunately learned the hard way by taking Philosophy 101 after already having the CS class on logic. Took a semester to go over what we did for the midterm. Got a lot of naps that semester.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#134

Post by switchbak »

tetha wrote: post #105
zahlman wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whereas programming has more “small steps”: even someone who’s not smart (but has grit) can write an impressive program, if they write one component at a time and there aren’t too many components that rely on each other. ... In my experience, learning to write one component at a time (and try the code, and make sure it works before proceeding) is itself a skill that many struggle to develop. Similarly for avoiding…

I dislike "everyone can learn to program" because it conflates many, many levels of skills and expertise. I very much think many people could learn the more advanced Excel Formulas, Power Automate and even simple Bash/PowerShell scripting to make their work more effective. I've met quite a few folks who had been intimidated out of trying who could do it. On the other hand, how many people on this site could bootstrap…

> Everyone with a largely functioning body can learn to turn a few planks and some metal parts into a functional shed door

It's shocking how little physical and spatial ability some people have - that is definitely not true. Sometimes it might be a personal discount or lack of confidence, but this remains true regardless of the cause.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#135

Post by mrexroad »

godelski wrote: post #113

It think this is silly on multiple accounts. I'll claim that there's not real thing such as a "language brain" or "math brain." I'll also claim that most people don't know what math is, and that their evidence supports a "math brain". Math isn't about calculations/computations, it is about patterns. You get to algebra and think "what are these letters doing in my math" but once you get further you think "what are the…

Thank you. I’ve long held that calculus, formal logic, combinatorics, etc. should be started in elementary school, separate from arithmetic. Even after stripping away the numbers and procedural knowledge, there is tremendous real world value in simply understanding many of the concepts. Plus, (and I say this half-jokingly) won’t we all be using llms to vibe-math everything that needs math-ing anyway?

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#136

Post by analog31 »

godelski wrote: post #126
QuercusMax wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most coding doesn't need much of any math past boolean logic and very basic set operations. I'm much more likely to spend my time studying DB and interface schemas to understand how something works than doing a lot of mathy fiddling. Sure, some people write game engines and such, but even much of 3D graphics doesn't need anything more complicated than the first half of a linear algebra course.

> Most coding doesn't need much of any math past boolean logic and very basic set operations Coding IS math. Not "coding uses math", I mean it is math. Mathematicians do not deal in objects, but in relations among objects; they are free to replace some object by others so long as the relations remain unchanged. Content to them is irrelevant; they are interested in form only. - Poincare[0] I don't know how you code, b…

But that doesnt necessarily mean successful programmers are good at conventional math. This is why certain people in the department are identified as "math people".

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#137

Post by quantadev »

There's only a handful of key concepts people need to learn to understand the basics of 'coding'. If you understand what a variable is, how they're scoped, how step-wise transformations happen, and what loops are, you know 90% of "coding". I knew it at age 13 in 1981 doing "Basic" programming. Sure mastery of the art of coding does take decades, but that's just just adding polish, rather than capability.

Math is VASTLY different with VASTLY more concepts that are all much more abstract in nature and harder to understand the infinite numbers of different ways one mathematical construct can be applied to another. A person can "master" coding, but no one ever masters math.

So comparing math to language or to coding is silly. They're completely separate domains. Just because each of the three can encode and represent the other two doesn't make them similar in any way whatsoever.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#138

Post by vendiddy »

godelski wrote: post #113

It think this is silly on multiple accounts. I'll claim that there's not real thing such as a "language brain" or "math brain." I'll also claim that most people don't know what math is, and that their evidence supports a "math brain". Math isn't about calculations/computations, it is about patterns. You get to algebra and think "what are these letters doing in my math" but once you get further you think "what are the…

It took me a long time to realize math consisted of abstractions.

I was never told, for example, that matrices are a useful abstraction (shorthand?) for representing linear equations.

Or that imaginary numbers were an invented abstraction that made certain calculations easier.

It would have been nice to learn it from the perspective of how those abstractions came into being and why they're useful.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#139

Post by xmprt »

godelski wrote: post #126
QuercusMax wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most coding doesn't need much of any math past boolean logic and very basic set operations. I'm much more likely to spend my time studying DB and interface schemas to understand how something works than doing a lot of mathy fiddling. Sure, some people write game engines and such, but even much of 3D graphics doesn't need anything more complicated than the first half of a linear algebra course.

> Most coding doesn't need much of any math past boolean logic and very basic set operations Coding IS math. Not "coding uses math", I mean it is math. Mathematicians do not deal in objects, but in relations among objects; they are free to replace some object by others so long as the relations remain unchanged. Content to them is irrelevant; they are interested in form only. - Poincare[0] I don't know how you code, b…

By that same logic you could also say that language is math. In fact I think your quote kind of disproves your point because the content/state of a program is super important in coding more than the form.

Coding used to be very close to pure math (many early computer science classes were taught in the Math Department in universities) but it has been so far abstracted from that to the point that it is its own thing and is as close to math as any other subject is.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#140

Post by godelski »

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #124
godelski wrote: post #113

It think this is silly on multiple accounts. I'll claim that there's not real thing such as a "language brain" or "math brain." I'll also claim that most people don't know what math is, and that their evidence supports a "math brain". Math isn't about calculations/computations, it is about patterns. You get to algebra and think "what are these letters doing in my math" but once you get further you think "what are the…

100%. I have 2 kids and what they learn at school is absurd... I have to put them in an extra class outside school where they learn a lot of the more abstract stuff, albeit as you say at a level which makes sense (not too deep).

Yeah, certainly we'd need to adapt classes to match their level, but we've tried before[0]. While it "failed" it also seemed pretty successful, especially in France and the USSR.

I mean is it any surprise kids get bored in math? They spend years learning the same thing. You spend years learning addition and multiplication (subtraction and division are the same operators). I sure as hell hated math as a kid. Especially doesn't help that it is always taught by someone who's also dispassionate about the subject. You really can get a process going where most middle schoolers are doing calculus and linear algebra (and advance ones are doing this in elementary). It isn't as far fetched as many would believe.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Math

Post reply on HN