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The future of solar doesn't track the sun

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Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#131
post #79
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read, and appreciated, your entire comment - thank you. You describe a simple and elegant solution to some portions of these problems and what you are doing with your hot water "battery" is smart. I am forced, however, to ask: Where do you live and how large is your family ? My suspicion is that you do not live in the United States and your family is relatively small ... ? Modern, "first world" ("global north" ?) 2…

Americans basically live like energy is unlimited, free and has no side effects, the rest of the world doesn't have that chance, last time I checked the average US household used anywhere between 3x and 4x more electricity than the average EU household They tend to prefer huge houses with relatively complex designs (less optimal in term of area/volume ratio) / poor insulation, they make up for it by relying on tech f…

> Your tankless water heater is a good example of something that is completely inadequate for solar setups, they draw insane amount of energy over very quick period

I know nothing about any of this, so please educate me for the good of us all - wouldn't this logically be a use case for a battery? IE: solar (or wind or whatever...) feeds a battery that feeds the tankless water heater. As a layperson, it would seem to me like the issue isn't generation but rather availability at the moment of demand - which would be the case in any kind of micro generation, right?

Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#132
post #127

I've been in solar energy as my primary vocation since the 1990's. I've built solar cars, I've built solar panels, I've installed solar panels, I've designed solar trackers. I know this industry inside and out. I'd never heard of an east-west array before (though I did experiment with one-cell-wide "crinolations" at 60 degree angles, did not find any value to using them but it was a different application where low-an…

I guess trackers really are an American thing? I’m in solar for ten years in The Netherlands, and I don’t think any utility scale fields use tracking. For residential roofs east-west placed systems have been an option for the same amount of time. They are now gaining popularity in The Netherlands because of net congestion during midday.

Trackers are useless when the majority of the incoming sunlight is diffuse (as is the case where you live).

Trackers are useful when the majority of the incoming sunlight is direct (America has a mix but the western half and parts of the south have a lot of direct).

Trackers are essential when you use concentrated sunlight.

A tracker that doubles the amount of sunlight hitting a panel is not free, but it also makes the panel take up 2x the area, or more, to avoid shading its neighbor.

The thing people tend to forget about trackers is they offer this trade-off where you can trade shaded area for power per rated panel. When land is cheap and panels (or arrays, heliostats, power towers, etc.) are expensive, trackers make sense.

The reverse has been the case for the past ten years, and continues to get more true by the day. I doubt we will ever see the day return where land is cheap again and/or PV are expensive again.

Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#133
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the appeal of living off-grid?

You don’t have to be around other people, and all the hassles that human society and population density entail. Some people are really into that. I’m really into same-day Amazon delivery and 30 minute latency on fresh pizza that I didn’t have to cook.

Taking time to cook elaborate meals is enjoyable if it isn't getting in the way of some other demand on your time. Living off grid you're probably going to have a lot less of those.

Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#134
Trackers tend to suffer from mechanical failures. Even 15 years ago, there was only one way to make money out of solar panels: Install them and forget them. If you need to waste time and money on the installation then the small profit vanishes really quickly. I really don't know how those companies convienced the investors for trackers.

Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like a big, very simple clock basically.

A big, not so simple clock moving a heavy array in all weather conditions, having to deal with constant changes in humidity, temperature, thermal stress, potential salinity, wear and tear, lubrication, gears, jams, etc. A large reason solar is winning out over wind is because the lack of moving parts drastically simplifies installation and maintenance. A solar tracker isn't as complex or high up as a wind turbine, bu…

I agree that it adds complexity, but it seems to me that the minimum there is on the order of the joints on a lawn chair, a screw drive, and a stepper. Not exactly high tech and if sufficiently overspec'd not likely to fail even in extremely adverse conditions.

Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i used standard chain link fence on top of my small greenhouse and it works even with such big "holes", no mechanism, just manual labor but needs good forecast which can be issue.

> it works even with such big "holes" I'm intrigued. Can you expand more on this? Why does it work? I guess because the hail is rarely coming straight-on at the holes and instead makes more glancing blows off the wire? In any case I think it's a perfect example of a good hack. Original out-of-the-box thinking producing an effective but unconventional solution. Chapeau bas!

i saw chicken wire used for something unknown to me on top of old 1800s greenhouses in France. it was not used for hail because it was resting directly on top of glass. i do not know what it was there for.

but hail and flying debris i got past few years is so big and so frequent that im not sure chicken wire will do the job.

a lot of gardeners use shading cloth for lowering sun light intensity. but that is not always enough to withstand hail.

A lot of times there is multiple pieces of hail stuck in one hole. some just bounce off.

i have PV on roof and not had issue with that. but i had few broken glass pieces of greenhouse glass. even tho it is on same property. it is glass-glass bifacial, i did not do it for back light but for longevity, i saw too many plastic backing tear off, or delaminated or how to call it. so i did not want that. and im not sure if that is also factor in not having broken PV.

doing it on huge PV areas should atleast be by my feeling too much of hassle, investment.

But some people mentioned in other comments small arrays of, if i remember correctly, 5kWp. so that is roughly area im doing it on. so in those small arrays it can be done manually.

https://99percentinvisible.org/article/fruit-walls-before-gr...

https://www.atlasobscura.com/adventures/trips/peru-machu-pic...

Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#137
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i used standard chain link fence on top of my small greenhouse and it works even with such big "holes", no mechanism, just manual labor but needs good forecast which can be issue.

Chain link fence is a really clever solution!

well, makes goats not eat precious plants so if it can withstand them, then hail will be ez. XD

(neighbors goats. i do not like animals, too much worry and work around diseases. there are tens, some years even hundred millions of chicken burned because of avian flu, pigs have african swine fewer,.... no thank you, corona cave bats of 2019, was enough for me...)

Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big, not so simple clock moving a heavy array in all weather conditions, having to deal with constant changes in humidity, temperature, thermal stress, potential salinity, wear and tear, lubrication, gears, jams, etc. A large reason solar is winning out over wind is because the lack of moving parts drastically simplifies installation and maintenance. A solar tracker isn't as complex or high up as a wind turbine, bu…

I agree that it adds complexity, but it seems to me that the minimum there is on the order of the joints on a lawn chair, a screw drive, and a stepper. Not exactly high tech and if sufficiently overspec'd not likely to fail even in extremely adverse conditions.

The thing is that most solar projects are commodity energy projects optimized for cost per watt, not necessarily reliability or efficiency (watts per area). We're not building them for the constraints of Mars bases or fancy spacecraft, just run of the mill generation.

Thus the tracker has to not just pay for itself, but be a better investment than simply buying more modules. The goal isn't reliability at any price, but cost effectiveness compared to making the project a little bigger and adding a few more modules.

Even with home rooftops (which have limited space), it's much cheaper to buy more premium modules with higher efficiency, or optimize their outputs with per module micro inverters or optimizers, than to mount the array on a tracker. With big commercial installations, there's even less of a space premium.

Trackers aren't just a one time upfront cost of manufacturing either, but an ongoing maintenance cost over the lifetime of the project. They get more expensive as less and less of the industry uses them and fewer parts and labor are available for them. They just can't compete with the Chinese dumping of cheap modules, which are so cheap now that almost all non Chinese manufacturers have gone bankrupt. So the industry is left with a glut of modules, which are probably just going to get cheaper and more efficient, while tracking technology and costs haven't improved anywhere near the same amount. It's all relative, and the trackers are losing big time.

Sure, as a science project with infinite funding, maybe you can make a super reliable one. In the real world, though, installations across the world have found them largely unappealing from a cost effectiveness standpoint.

Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can push excess power into the grid. It will reduce / reverse your electricity bill. Look into local regulations.

I've got a co-op that won't net meter below a fixed cost that's close to my monthly. I just like the idea.

Can't you buy some home battery backups and either use them for time shifting (buy low, sell high) or just for backup power?

Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun

#140

I just spent 6 years living off-grid, running 5kw of solar, and 14kWh of storage. I setup a fixed array that I welded together myself. I could certainly see that tracking wasn't worth it even then. However, in the off grid-setting I did discover some nuance. Sometimes you could really do with some power around sunset or sunrise. In the winter, being able to more reliably run my air-source heat pump at sun-up would ha…

Wouldn't it more reliable, day to day, to oversize the production during the sunniest parts of the day and then dump that into storage to use whenever you wanted, not only during twilight but whenever it was cloudy, freak weather conditions, etc.?
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