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Don't force your kids to do math

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Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#131

Post by jand »

WalterBright wrote: post #63

> Without realizing it, he was doing algebra. A friend of mine taught remedial math at UW to incoming freshmen. She would write: x + 2 = 5 on the blackboard and ask a student "what is the value of x?" The student would see the x, and immediately respond with x means algebra, algebra is hard, I cannot do algebra. So she started writing: _ + 2 = 5 and ask the student to fill in the blank. "Oh, it's 3!"

As we are sharing anecdotes:

One of my school math teacher had the same approach in another way: We were expected to use greek letters, not latin ones.

Same reasoning: It showed us kiddos that the letter was insignificant compared to the concept expressed by the letter.

So my take would be: Your friend taught the students for the first time what they were actually doing while handling equations with "a letter in it". That is no problem of algebra in itself. It just means their previous teachers sucked.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#132

Post by paganel »

eastbound wrote: post #128
paganel wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world needs less Asian kids being forced to play piano since a very early age and it needs more kids (Asian and not only) that are left to explore the world. Without that exploration the kids won't make the world their world, at best they'd only make it a bad approximation of what we, our (older) generation, best think that that world should be.

Any proof of why it is best? I prefer to live among educated people, thank you. I prefer my peers to go through forced history lessons, forced math lessons so they don’t tank my government, and biology lessons so they don’t tank the health system. Yes they won’t be able to determine their gender, but that will give me grandkids, thank you very much. Same goes for piano or sports. Yes we need to pull people upwards, o…

Because "forced history lessons" doesn't help said kids understand what history really is about, it just helps them accumulate facts, if that.

I'd say the same thing applies to math, where one can't really start understanding math until said kid is already an adolescent (unless they're a young Euler or something), so it always baffles me when I see parents filling their young kids with (fancy) arithmetics, most probably making said kids future therapy patients, all the while lauding themselves (the parents do, that is) that they're teaching their kids "maths".

Related, one of the best maths teachers I've had (this was back in high-school, in the mid-90s) was very quick to point out that we should forget almost all "maths" we had learned in elementary school, and the he very soon started to explain to us the definition of the real numbers. Or maybe this is just an Eastern-European thing, who knows? Maybe further West they do confuse arithmetics with maths until the Uni' years.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#133

Post by openplatypus »

laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

> The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them.

Such a bold claim coming from some who does not share their credentials on the matter.

My kid will do everything as long as it is interesting. My sample of 1 contradicts your claim, but neither of us are experts on the matter.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#134

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

If the kid isn't enjoying the piano lessons, will forcing them to do it for 20 minutes every day really be beneficial? Sure, they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate... (also, why is it always piano that parents try to force on children?)

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#135

Post by sysrestartusr »

laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

The important part is to start as early as possible and absolutely not trust the school/teacher or kindergarden staff. They are badly programmed to reinforce kids in what comes easy to them and stop encouraging them after less than a handful of attempts.

If you have to restart later, no matter at which point, even up into 'the kids' 20s ( ultra late bloomers, slackers, kids disgusted by most people for reason Z, drug- or "condition X"-induced deadbeats, repressed kids with and without ADHD, failed or successful attempts by psycho-social environments ) understand three things:

1) you are not pushing, even if you are, you are demanding sth for the sake of your child AND yourself. YOU WANT THIS first and foremost. It's not a bad thing, fuck what the little fucker wants.

It's imperative for the kid to know that YOU WANT THIS no matter the obstacles. You want to see the process and result. It's a form of accountability, I guess. Kids pushing back is some dumb implicit way to check how important THEY and THE THING really are to you _or someone else_ (that counts for the ugly stuff, too). It's part of our evolutionary, hard-coded OODA loop.

2) just start at the very beginning, so that it's easy, almost effortless. The kid will be annoyed on most of the difficulty increases, it always depends on the sub-topic so don't back down. Even 20 year olds will catch up with their successful piers within some time. Neuro-genesis is awesome. Most 'grown up' stuff is child's play and a matter of baseline-human character anyway.

3) your stress level is what matters. Stay cool, be equanimous, serene, check your posture, voice, tone, the discussion won't last 5 min and will be worth it.

Absolutely force your kids to do math.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#136

Post by milesrout »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #134
laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

If the kid isn't enjoying the piano lessons, will forcing them to do it for 20 minutes every day really be beneficial? Sure, they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate... (also, why is it always piano that parents try to force on children?)

They don't hate it. They dislike being bad at it, they dislike working hard at things, and they like video games and scrolling on their phones.

And yes practicing will result in them getting better.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#137

Post by Jensson »

Buttons840 wrote: post #72
zmgsabst wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve always found that an indictment of math education — and spent many, many hours discussing it. When teaching addition, workbooks commonly use a box, eg, “[ ] + 2 = 5” — and first graders have no conceptual problem with this. Somehow, we lose people by the time we’re trying to formalize the same concept in algebra. There’s been many times I’ve written a box around letters in a problem and asked students “what’s in…

Go from "[ ] + 2 = 5" to writing it "box + 2 = 5--what is box?". Then "b + 2 = 5--what is b?" then "x + 2 = 5--what is x?".

That is what math books already do.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#138

Post by snaige »

laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

[dead]

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#139

Post by milesrout »

paganel wrote: post #118
laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

The world needs less Asian kids being forced to play piano since a very early age and it needs more kids (Asian and not only) that are left to explore the world. Without that exploration the kids won't make the world their world, at best they'd only make it a bad approximation of what we, our (older) generation, best think that that world should be.

Kids left to their own devices don't explore the world. They play video games and scroll on social media.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#140

Post by trinix912 »

codemac wrote: post #8

It's not about forcing your kids to "do math", but to excel at important skills far before the benefits of being good at that skill matter. The amount of homework/study per day that maximizes math scores on tests is significant, 1+ hours/school day by the time they're in middle school, with it helping even more for those who are starting out poor at math[0]. You'll note the referenced study doesn't even max out progr…

> As a parent of young kids, obviously I haven't gone through high school yet - but I don't think many children who reach their potential in math, english, music etc will have no pressure from their parents.

Well it depends. I had no pressure from my parents to learn about programming but still got really good at it. Could I have gotten even better had I been pressured to "practice"? Perhaps. But then I also wouldn't like it for the reasons I do (I like making stuff, but not solving riddles) and it would feel like the dad sport situation.

I also played the piano for 6 years, starting out because I liked it. My parents didn't suggest it, but a few years in they were pushing me to continue even when I didn't like it anymore. Finished the first level of music school (6 years where I live) and haven't touched it since. Just to clarify, they weren't using any directly abusive tactics to keep me going, but they did put a lot of pressure onto it.

There's a lot of nuance to all of this and I don't completely disagree that we should occasionally pressure our kids to push their limits. What we often fail to acknowledge is that kids easily change their minds after a while. Just because they liked something at a certain point doesn't mean they still do. The easiest way to get a kid to dislike something is to make it a chore. Additionally, I think we need to ask ourselves whether it's more important to us to have a kid that's average scoring but has a (mostly) stress free upbringing, or one that excels but is stressed out by the time they hit high school. Kids absorb stress differently than we (adults) do.

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