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Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

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Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#131

Post by Aurornis »

gertrunde wrote: post #125

I would like to think there there is a solution that can be engineered, in which a service is able to verify that a user is above an appropriate age threshold, while maintaining privacy safeguards, including, where relevant, for the age-protected service not to be privy to the identity of the user, and for the age verification service to not be privy to the nature of the age-protected service being accessed. In this…

Crypto comes up every time this topic is discussed but it misses the point.

The hard part is identifying with reasonable accuracy that the person sitting in front of the device is who they say they are, or a certain age.

Offloading everything to crypto primitive moves the problem into a different domain where the check is verifying you have access to some crypto primitive, not that it’s actually you or yours.

Any fully privacy-preserving crypto solution would have the flaw that verifications could be sold online. Someone turns 21 (or other age) and begins selling verifications with their ID because there is no attachment back to them, and therefore no consequences. So people then start imaging extra layers that would protect against this, which start eroding the privacy because you’re returning back to central verification of something.

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#132

Post by packetlost »

paxys wrote: post #129
gertrunde wrote: post #125

I would like to think there there is a solution that can be engineered, in which a service is able to verify that a user is above an appropriate age threshold, while maintaining privacy safeguards, including, where relevant, for the age-protected service not to be privy to the identity of the user, and for the age verification service to not be privy to the nature of the age-protected service being accessed. In this…

Transferring your age and a way to verify it to any third party is by definition a privacy violation. Doing so in a safe way is literally impossible since I don't want to share that information in the first place.

I feel like you could, theoretically, have a service that has an ID (as drivers license ID), perhaps operated by your government, that has an API and a notion of an ephemeral identifier that can be used to provide a digital attestation of some property without exposing that property or the exact identity of the person. It would require that the attestation system is trusted by all parties though, which is I think the core problem.

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#133

Post by Edmond »

gertrunde wrote: post #125

I would like to think there there is a solution that can be engineered, in which a service is able to verify that a user is above an appropriate age threshold, while maintaining privacy safeguards, including, where relevant, for the age-protected service not to be privy to the identity of the user, and for the age verification service to not be privy to the nature of the age-protected service being accessed. In this…

There is a solution and I am the developer:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40298552#40298804

Talking about it or explaining it is like pulling teeth; generally just a thorough misunderstanding of the notion....even though cryptographic certificates make the modern internet possible.

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#135

Post by xvokcarts »

like_any_other wrote: post #53
woodrowbarlow wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ultimately, i think the endgame is to require government ID in order to access internet services in general, a la ender's game.

Many countries (including in the EU) already required ID to use a SIM card: https://forestvpn.com/blog/news/countries-sim-card-registrat... Funnily enough, when the Philippines did this, it was decried as a violation of human rights [1]. But usually, media are so silent on such things I'd call them complicit. One already cannot so much as rent a hotel room anywhere in the EU without showing government ID. [1] https:/…

You can buy (and top up) a SIM card without an ID in the EU.

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#136

Post by Marsymars »

x187463 wrote: post #26

I see a lot of comments here arguing age requirements are overreach and these decisions should be left to the parents. To those presenting such arguments, do you think that applies to other activities as well? What about smoking/drinking/firearms? Pornography? Driving? I haven't researched the topic of social media's effect on young people, but the common sentiment I encounter is that it's generally harmful, or at le…

> I see a lot of comments here arguing age requirements are overreach and these decisions should be left to the parents. To those presenting such arguments, do you think that applies to other activities as well? What about smoking/drinking/firearms? Pornography? Driving?

My gut feel here mostly has to do with how I view the activity overall. Smoking I see as a social ill that both adults and children would be better off without, so I don't particularly mind an ID check that inconveniences adults, and that can be opted-out from by simply not smoking. (Social media I see as pretty akin to smoking.)

Inconveniencing adults with ID checks is probably not actually a good way to create incentives though.

(Driving is a special case due to negative externalities and danger you cause to others.)

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#137

Post by nonchalantsui »

paxys wrote: post #129
gertrunde wrote: post #125

I would like to think there there is a solution that can be engineered, in which a service is able to verify that a user is above an appropriate age threshold, while maintaining privacy safeguards, including, where relevant, for the age-protected service not to be privy to the identity of the user, and for the age verification service to not be privy to the nature of the age-protected service being accessed. In this…

Transferring your age and a way to verify it to any third party is by definition a privacy violation. Doing so in a safe way is literally impossible since I don't want to share that information in the first place.

Do you feel this way when you enter credit card information when making a purchase online?

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#138

Post by whall6 »

Edmond wrote: post #133
gertrunde wrote: post #125

I would like to think there there is a solution that can be engineered, in which a service is able to verify that a user is above an appropriate age threshold, while maintaining privacy safeguards, including, where relevant, for the age-protected service not to be privy to the identity of the user, and for the age verification service to not be privy to the nature of the age-protected service being accessed. In this…

There is a solution and I am the developer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40298552#40298804 Talking about it or explaining it is like pulling teeth; generally just a thorough misunderstanding of the notion....even though cryptographic certificates make the modern internet possible.

How are the certificates issued?

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#139

Post by nonchalantsui »

jkaplowitz wrote: post #112
KaiserPro wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a corner shop sells cigarettes to minors, who's breaking the law? When a TV channel broadcast porn, who gets fined? These are accepted laws that protect kids from "harm", which are relatively uncontroversial. Now, the privacy angle is very much the right question. But as Discord are the one that are going to get fined, they totally need to make sure kids aren't being exposed to shit they shouldn't be seeing unti…

At least the ways that a corner shop verifies age don't have the same downsides as typical online age verifiers. They just look at an ID document; verify that it's on the official list of acceptable ID documents, seems to be genuine and valid and unexpired, appears to relate to the person buying the product, and shows an old enough age; and hand the document back. The corner shop has far fewer false negatives, far lo…

That's exactly how a digital ID system would work, and yet people argue against those all the time as well.

Additionally, the corner shop does not have far lower data privacy risks - actually it's quite worse. They have you on camera and have a witness who can corroborate you are that person on camera, alongside a paper trail for your order. There is no privacy there, only the illusion of such.

Re: Discord's face scanning age checks 'start of a bigger shift'

#140

Post by Edmond »

whall6 wrote: post #138
Edmond wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a solution and I am the developer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40298552#40298804 Talking about it or explaining it is like pulling teeth; generally just a thorough misunderstanding of the notion....even though cryptographic certificates make the modern internet possible.

How are the certificates issued?

https://certisfy.com/partnership/

Any number of entities can be certificate issuers, as long as they can be deemed sufficiently trustworthy. Schools, places of worship, police, notary, employers...they can all play the role of trust anchor.

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