Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Breaking Up with On-Call

reflector.dev

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 202 posts

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#131

Post by ZaoLahma »

thor_molecules wrote: post #114
ZaoLahma wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly why I gave up a position as a full stack / devops engineer in favor of going back to low level drivers - there were too many unknowns, and far too many unknown unknowns often paired with expectations of prompt (and cheap) solutions to complicated issues. Technically it was interesting and challenging, but in terms of stress just not worth it. You could pay me twice my current salary and I still would…

> ...far too many unknown unknowns often paired with expectations of prompt (and cheap) solutions to complicated issues. That describes pretty much all of my "full-stack" experience. What sort of job/background do you have where you are writing low level drivers? I'd love to get into that side of things but I don't know where to start.

Telecom and automotive.

I guess hobby robotics, for example, could get you an entry to it if you choose to write the hardware interfacing parts yourself.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#132

Post by ZaoLahma »

tenacious_tuna wrote: post #121
ZaoLahma wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly why I gave up a position as a full stack / devops engineer in favor of going back to low level drivers - there were too many unknowns, and far too many unknown unknowns often paired with expectations of prompt (and cheap) solutions to complicated issues. Technically it was interesting and challenging, but in terms of stress just not worth it. You could pay me twice my current salary and I still would…

How'd you manage the transition (back?) to low-level? I would love to do chip work (or really anything systems-y) but all my experience is fullstack/webdev. Every time I apply I get bounced for insuffficient domain experience.

I started off my career in low level stuff and transitioned upwards to web. I’ve always been all over the place in terms of tech so it wasn’t particularly big steps either way. I’ve usually got something low level-ish going on at home. Emulator development, robotics, …

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#133

Post by 9rx »

rwmj wrote: post #76
liveoneggs wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For nurses on-call is a tiny amount - $3/hr and then you get 1.5x if you actually get called in

Pay is all about power. Nurses individually have little power (as they are replaceable), which is why unionising is good for them as the union gives them collective power. Software engineers are an interesting case; some have a great deal of domain-specific knowledge, giving them leverage over their employers. Many less so, and so a union could help. AI might change this equation too.

> Nurses individually have little power (as they are replaceable)

Replaceable with what, exactly? The local ER is now having to close in the evening because they can't find sufficient nursing staff to keep it operating.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#134

Post by 9rx »

dkdbejwi383 wrote: post #106
spiffytech wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any particular reason you can't handle incidents while out and about? I know it varies by situation. When I've been on call I've been able to mostly go about my life. I just had to keep my laptop close, stay in cell signal, and accept I would sometimes have interruptions (typically brief). We fought to keep them infrequent enough that they didn't ruin our lives.

I do long(ish) distance running as a hobby - it's not feasible to take a laptop out on a two hour run. If I want to go meet a friend for a drink or food, I have to lug around a backpack, keep an eye on it to make sure it's not stolen. If I wanted to have a beer or wine, I can't because I may need to work at any point. Favourite band is performing? I suppose you could take a backpack and the laptop to the venue, but a…

I use my pocket computer if something comes up. It's not nearly as pleasant to use, granted, but way more pleasant than carrying a laptop everywhere. But I also wouldn't hesitate to have a beer if the desire arose. Perhaps I'm just not as committed to my work as you.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#135

Post by monknomo »

smitelli wrote: post #78
rwmj wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why people used to be paid time-and-a-half or even double-time for being on call. Ask your union to demand that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-and-a-half

Fun fact: In the US the concept of time-and-a-half (also minimum wage, and not hiring child labor) was created by the Fair Labor Standards Act. Most tech employees are classified as "exempt" -- the FLSA and its protections doesn't apply to them.

I have never understood why 'computer' workers are exempt

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#136

Post by inetknght »

procaryote wrote: post #63
AdieuToLogic wrote: post #26

The industry myth of "devs need to be on-call just in case prod crashes at 3am" needs to die. First, a system failure addressed by someone awoken "at 3am" assumes said person can transition from sleep to peek analytic mode in moments. This is obviously not the case. Second, a system failure addressed by someone awoken "at 3am" assumes said person possesses omniscient awareness of all aspects of a non-trivial system.…

If the code is important enough that it needs to be fixed if it breaks at 03:00, someone needs to be on-call If that someone isn't the dev, things breaking at 03:00 is someone else's problem from the PoV of the dev, and it will likely keep breaking. I've tried at several companies to get dev-teams to prioritise things causing a lot of work for the ops-team, and nothing has worked as well as disbanding the ops team an…

> If that someone isn't the dev, things breaking at 03:00 is someone else's problem from the PoV of the dev, and it will likely keep breaking.

If that's the case, then the person responding at 03:00 needs to have a serious conversation with the dev, or with whoever's assigning/prioritizing tickets to the dev.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#138

Post by gopher_space »

gosub100 wrote: post #125
viraptor wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you will find some extreme examples that could go that far, unions don't generally do that. Organisations that fight unions however do like to bring up that example, so... you've been had with anti union propaganda.

So my coworker who was a UAW member who told me stories about sleeping on the roof, and being reprimanded for moving a desk to retrieve a pen...was trying to dupe me?

Why are you getting all of your thinking from one co-worker?

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#139

Post by inetknght »

AStonesThrow wrote: post #122

I was at the tender age of 21, and a mere contractor at my first job. I recall being paid hourly, but never filling a time card. I had just been promoted to a systems admin role, after demonstrating prowess with coding and system configuration, and also the actual qualified admin had quit. One of my projects involved a rewrite of server code for efficiency as our /etc/passwd balooned to thousands of users, and too ma…

> So my mother said that our household policy would henceforth be: "if something explodes out there, nobody answers the phone!"

So if you had family that needed your immediate help, they would not receive it?

That's indeed a perverse incentive.

Re: Breaking Up with On-Call

#140

Post by wnc3141 »

dakiol wrote: post #62

For me the worst thing about being on-call is not the actual work outside business hours (it’s usually not much), but the potential work: if something happens I need to jump into my laptop within X minutes (changes from company to company, but it’s usually within 10 minutes). This means: I cannot go for a run, I cannot go to the movies, I cannot go for a dinner with family, I cannot even go shopping (shopping mall is…

The airlines pay a certain rate when you go on call - since your'e still effectively on company time.
Post reply on HN