Live data from Hacker News

We're Charging Our Cars Wrong

spectrum.ieee.org

131–140 of 213 posts

Re: We're Charging Our Cars Wrong

#131
post #91

Buried deep in the article, what the clickbait headline alludes to: Car chargers are too complicated and expensive. We can make them simpler and cheaper while keeping them safe, which would let us build many more charging stations.

Where I live the electricity is primarily generated by fossil fuels. The light is weak for many months of the year, and wind power is apparently way too expensive if they remove the subsidies (weird!). Wouldn’t gas cars just eliminate the middleman of fossil fuels -> power plant -> car? Like we did before EVs? I would love nuclear power but it doesn’t appear to be happening

Gas car ≠ EV charged by fossil fuels.

As of 2018, 94% of the US population lived in an area where charging an EV would emit less than a >50mpg car. In terms of electricity grid regions, an EV has lower emissions than a 50 mpg gasoline vehicle in 85% of them. [1] Yes, most of the US is still powered by fossil fuels, but ICE tailpipe emissions are very different than power plant emissions.

As for why switching to EVs is preferred to sticking with gas cars, aside from climate change, tailpipe emissions from ICE vehicles cause ∼200,000 early deaths to occur in the U.S. each year [2] (old data, but average MPG of vehicles in the US has barely changed, though particulate matter is better filtered, though there are more vehicles and annual vehicle miles traveled in the US has increased. Hard to pin an exact number without newer research, but without any doubt many thousands are dying from the pollution.)

As far as climate change goes, over a quarter comes from transportation in the US [3]. EVs alone won't take that to single numbers, but halving transportation emissions would still be significant progress.

As far as

> The light is weak for many months of the year, and wind power is apparently way too expensive if they remove the subsidies (weird!)

Globally, fossil fuel subsidies were $7 trillion or 7.1 percent of global GDP in 2022 [4]. 70% of energy subsidies go towards fossil fuels (admittedly not the case in the US though.) [5] But subsidies aside, solar and wind is very price competitive with gas (and often far cheaper than coal) [6].

There's also $24.662 trillion in externalities for energy and transport (equivalent to 28.7% of global GDP) [7]. So sticking with ICE cars and fossil fuels is unlikely to be a smart decision from a financial perspective.

1. https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/2020-05/evs-clean...

2. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13522...

3. https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fast-facts-transportation-...

4. https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/climate-change/energy-subsidie...

5. https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-do-government-subsi...

6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source

7. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221462962...

Re: We're Charging Our Cars Wrong

#132
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's a 'coin'?

If you’re not being facetious, a unit of currency, minted out of metals of varying preciousness throughout the ages in the shape of a circle, usually imprinted with the monarch or head of state on one side and a symbol on the other. If you’re being facetious, you’re probably aware that “coin-op” refers to any simply-operated payment terminal, as you’d find in a do-it-yourself car wash or parking meter (that doesn’t r…

I, too, was confused by the "coin operated are more robust than cables". The two seem orthogonal? Would you not still have cables?

Re: We're Charging Our Cars Wrong

#133
post #99
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's 7 mph of charging. The average car is driving 60 minutes per day, and if there are chargers everywhere that's 161 miles per day of charge if it's plugged in when not driven. That covers everything the existing system doesn't already.

The 7mph claim is inflated. The rare EV gets more than 5 mi/kWh in any situation, especially highway driving, and your L1 charging is getting you roughly 1 kWh/hr. > The average car is driving 60 minutes per day This is a sleight of hand. Non-average situations arise all the time. Your proposal is ridiculously burdensome and not especially helpful.

Owning an EV, I can confirm your numbers. I'm in a 240V country, but level 1 is still pretty slow. It's great for the home, but I'd want at least 3-phase AC charging when I'm out.

Re: We're Charging Our Cars Wrong

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The convenience to me of being able to refuel anywhere quickly, plus the dubious carbon savings, plus the immediate discount on the car purchase (without any subsidies), makes it a moral purchase rather than a practical one. I am not very impressed by the benefits. I like how EVs accelerate faster. Otherwise it would make my life way more inconvenient, which I surmise is a major blocker for most potential EV purchase…

I guess it depends on your driving habits and homecharging situation, but after a year with my EV, I wouldn't go back if God came down and personally told me that every EV resulted in a baby seal being clubbed. Among the many advantages, never having to go to a gas station is so much better.

Yeah that was my experience (not the seal clubbing) with my Model X in Europe in 2019. Great for the daily commute, never had to hit a gas station but on longer trips it's more planning. Sales of Teslas definitely increased faster than the charging network expanded, so while I never had to wait in 2019, the situation was different in 2022. Now I'm back at 13mpg and similar bhp. Still have good memories of the Tesla but in the states distances are longer and I just can't haul an RV with an EV. Even small trailers have quite the range impact.

Re: We're Charging Our Cars Wrong

#135

You don’t really need two ground wires, CP has a diode with series resistance 2.74K to PE (ground) so it’s trivially possible for the EVSE to just send a push/pull waveform over CP and if it reads push but not pull (remember diode) then it knows it’s connected properly. The return path for the pilot current will be over the PE contact, so it can also be detect and doubly verify that PE is low resistance, although ide…

If I understood the article correctly, the high safety comes from having two ground connections and stopping already if one of them is broken. Your way would mean that if PE breaks, and at the same time contact between some high voltage component and the chassis is made, electrocution is possible.

Re: We're Charging Our Cars Wrong

#136
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of projects were planned to start this year. It takes a while to get all the surveys and permits.

>It takes a while to get all the surveys and permits. Yes, that's exactly the problem, an over regulated permitting regime. If we are in a climate emergency then we should treat it as such, which means that if the Federal government can't overrule local permitting restrictions, they should prioritize funding to states that are willing to relax permitting requirements and get shovels in the ground.

> they should prioritize funding to states that are willing to relax permitting requirements and get shovels in the ground.

Another comment [0] is lamenting because that is exactly what they did.

States could get funding if they built the stations, which includes figuring out any permitting issues.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43263325

Re: We're Charging Our Cars Wrong

#137
post #17

Require a coin-operated 120V outlet with gfci and accessible way to reset the breaker for every two parking spots, everywhere. Many benefits: 1. Everywhere you go, you know there'll be somewhere to charge overnight. 2. It's the cheapest per installed spot, by far, allowing way more locations. 3. Renters can safely by an electric car and have home charging. 4. Coin-op 120V are far more robust than cables with valuable…

What's a 'coin'?

You attach a 'meme' to it which turns it into a 'rug' that you can 'pull'

Re: We're Charging Our Cars Wrong

#138
post #9

Lightning strikes...how do EVs currently guard against it? - With galvanic isolation baked directly into onboard charger, I'm thinking worst case outcome is charging infra and isolation link get fried, but that really expensive EV battery remains safe. - Without galvanic isolation, battery goes...boom? Hopefully without you or your family waiting inside the vehicle under some false pretense of safety.

It gets you back to good old 1985

Re: We're Charging Our Cars Wrong

#139
BTW everyone is fond of Norway while having zero idea how it's actually over there.

Consider this movie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Order_of_Disappearance

The protagonist plows snow for a living, using 200-300 bhp diesel truck for like half a year each year, day after day. This thing just can not be replaced with an electric no matter what you try. And without it there would be zero traffic, electric or no.

It often looks like people here mostly do not comprehend what snowfall is.

Re: We're Charging Our Cars Wrong

#140
post #106

This doesn't solve fundamental problems with how America has built its charging infrastructure. We never should have placed hardwired cables on the L2 or L3 chargers. The CCS plugs are broken about 50% of the time? It's a joke. Rented an EV in Europe... the cable is in the trunk! You own it. Take it out, plug it into the charger, plug it into your car. Having a bad day? Drive over the plug? Smash it with a hammer? Do…

Somehow this largely isn't a problem for gas stations. Not sure why you'd want to carry around a bulky cable when it can just live at the charge station. > The CCS plugs are broken about 50% of the time? Anecdotal, but this has not been my experience at all.

Could be a combination of things: more robust nozzle design vs CCS, the gas station is manned and has security cameras.

I would happily carry the cable on trips where I planned to stop and charge if it meant the L3 was guaranteed to work.

Anecdotal for me as well. EVgo was so unreliable that I just stopped driving my EV for any trip that required charging. Almost every visit I’d have to try 2-3 chargers, hold the plug in or slightly bias it up or down to get past some comms/short/? check to start charging.

Usually no issues with ChargePoint L2 or L3, (it’s not the car). But there just aren’t that many around.

Post reply on HN