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Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

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Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#131

Post by robotresearcher »

macartain wrote: post #128
corry wrote: post #109

I'm 100% onboard with the 'Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune' theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a 'visionary substance' (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif. He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn't THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic…

Plus he also had the smarts to use plausible mechanisms to remove advanced computers (the Butlerian Jihad) and nuclear weapons (some sort of extreme taboo based on a historical event IIRC? it's been a while..) from the technologies available to the Dune universe. This allowed the exploration of all sorts of human developmental possibilities - the Bene Gesserit and mentats, advanced schools of martial art and mental d…

The personal force-field shield was clever too. Removes bullets from the story, in favor of martial arts.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#132

Post by daseiner1 »

inanutshellus wrote: post #122
keepamovin wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's smart too. And how the "Spacefaring Guild" requires spice to navigate the best routes between the stars. Oil for transport. Everyone brought to their needs by Pauls' threat to switch off the oil supply. It's all so smart, Herbert was a hypergenius I think.

> Herbert was a hypergenius I think. DUNE is (one of?) my favorite fiction reads and I have to resist turning all "fanboy" over it sometimes. I love the sensation in DUNE that I'm inside a fully fleshed-out universe where the vision is so large I can't even see the edges, but here's one thread you might find interesting. ...that said... I never really "got" the rest of the series. Never felt like Paul and his actions…

Children of Dune is my favorite thus far (just finished God Emperor… and don’t intend to continue the series).

With that being said, Frank Herbert certainly (IMO) is a genius of pure vision and worldbuilding but he is a serviceable writer at best.

By the aforementioned fourth book, he no longer has anything to add to his consideration of prescience/fate and is increasingly focused on sexuality. And his writing on sexuality is about as un-sensual as I can imagine.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#133

Post by inanutshellus »

jawilson2 wrote: post #129
inanutshellus wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Herbert was a hypergenius I think. DUNE is (one of?) my favorite fiction reads and I have to resist turning all "fanboy" over it sometimes. I love the sensation in DUNE that I'm inside a fully fleshed-out universe where the vision is so large I can't even see the edges, but here's one thread you might find interesting. ...that said... I never really "got" the rest of the series. Never felt like Paul and his actions…

> DUNE is (one of?) my favorite non-fiction reads > non-fiction I have some bad news for you...

hahah are implying DUNE isn't historical non-fiction?!! ;) Thank you; fixed.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#134

Post by Neonlicht »

inanutshellus wrote: post #122
keepamovin wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's smart too. And how the "Spacefaring Guild" requires spice to navigate the best routes between the stars. Oil for transport. Everyone brought to their needs by Pauls' threat to switch off the oil supply. It's all so smart, Herbert was a hypergenius I think.

> Herbert was a hypergenius I think. DUNE is (one of?) my favorite fiction reads and I have to resist turning all "fanboy" over it sometimes. I love the sensation in DUNE that I'm inside a fully fleshed-out universe where the vision is so large I can't even see the edges, but here's one thread you might find interesting. ...that said... I never really "got" the rest of the series. Never felt like Paul and his actions…

Yeah I like the first book the most. The series went off the rails.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#135

Post by jcranmer »

daseiner1 wrote: post #132
inanutshellus wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Herbert was a hypergenius I think. DUNE is (one of?) my favorite fiction reads and I have to resist turning all "fanboy" over it sometimes. I love the sensation in DUNE that I'm inside a fully fleshed-out universe where the vision is so large I can't even see the edges, but here's one thread you might find interesting. ...that said... I never really "got" the rest of the series. Never felt like Paul and his actions…

Children of Dune is my favorite thus far (just finished God Emperor … and don’t intend to continue the series). With that being said, Frank Herbert certainly (IMO) is a genius of pure vision and worldbuilding but he is a serviceable writer at best. By the aforementioned fourth book, he no longer has anything to add to his consideration of prescience/fate and is increasingly focused on sexuality. And his writing on se…

It's been a while since I've read them, but I recall Heretics and Chapterhouse being better than God Emperor. Although also weirder.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#136

Post by edm0nd »

bookofjoe wrote: post #33

I saw "Lawrence of Arabia" at the Riverside Theatre on Wisconsin Avenue in Milwaukee in 70mm in the summer of 1962, the year it was released. I was overwhelmed ("blown away" as a term of art didn't exist back then but would be an apt description). I was SO thrilled when, after nearly two hours, the screen said "There will now be an intermission." Never heard of such a thing back then for a movie! I note that the film…

It's such a great movie! The entire story of El Aurens is extremely fascinating.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#137

Post by throw4847285 »

Many writers of genre fiction rely on their audience having read fewer history books than they have. I saw people online calling George Lucas a prophet for depicting the decline of the Republic in the Prequels, but he really just read a couple of books about Ancient Rome. And dragons and zombies make the premise of "what if the Mongols invaded during the War of the Roses" a lot more exciting.

Originality is overrated though, so I don't mind. One of my favorite science fiction novels, The Stars my Destination by Alfred Bester, is transparently based on The Count of Monte Cristo.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#138

Post by Neonlicht »

Animats wrote: post #31
karaterobot wrote: post #18

> The 1962 film based on a romanticized version of Lawrence’s journey... rested on the idea of the ‘white savior,’ whose role was to lend a sympathetic ear to oppressed peoples and provide assistance to improve their lot in life. I really think this is the wrong interpretation of the end of that movie.

It's very much the British Empire view of the world. Read Kipling's India tales.

Considering the British supplied weapons, explosives and tactics to the Saudi uprising "white man saviour" is not far from the truth no?

I don't know why it is considered politically incorrect nowadays to say that the world as we know it was shaped by white people. Deng Xiaoping himself constantly told his own comrades how fucking pathetic China had become. And nobody could argue with him.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#140

Post by cogman10 »

inanutshellus wrote: post #122
keepamovin wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's smart too. And how the "Spacefaring Guild" requires spice to navigate the best routes between the stars. Oil for transport. Everyone brought to their needs by Pauls' threat to switch off the oil supply. It's all so smart, Herbert was a hypergenius I think.

> Herbert was a hypergenius I think. DUNE is (one of?) my favorite fiction reads and I have to resist turning all "fanboy" over it sometimes. I love the sensation in DUNE that I'm inside a fully fleshed-out universe where the vision is so large I can't even see the edges, but here's one thread you might find interesting. ...that said... I never really "got" the rest of the series. Never felt like Paul and his actions…

> Never felt like Paul and his actions were acceptably justified

I actually like what Hurbert did with paul. He made someone that was a god amongst man and then completely destroyed his legacy. Paul both was and wasn't a hero depending on the perspective of the person in the story. Herbert did a good job of showing the dangers of worshiping an authoritarian leader.

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